4 ms·

> Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my responden

> Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese. > That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner... I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. You're taking a very inconsiderate side of this argument, not to mention incorrect.

coldtea 9y ago
>I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%). But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out. I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan. People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners. What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X. If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me. But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is). In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.

coldtea 9y ago

>I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%). But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out. I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan. People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners. What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.

brucephillips 9y ago
> What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X. If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me. But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is). In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.