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> science around those, there's no science around those, just word twisting and mental gymnastics. "Gender studies" and such are not science in any form.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> there's no science around those There's considerable science around them and there interrelationship. > "Gender studies" and such are not science in any form. Gender (and, likewise, ethnic, etc.) studies is an interdisciplinary domain that includes both science and non-science elements; the science around sex, gender, and gender identity, though, is found in human biology, psychology/neuroscience, sociology, anthropology, and other fields, though it is, of course, often of interest to gender/women's/queer studies.
- kofejnik 9y ago
  > Gender (and, likewise, ethnic, etc.) studies is an interdisciplinary domain ... Yes, like astrology and homeopathy
ekiru 9y ago
Gender studies is probably not what GP had in mind. People who do gender studies don't generally consider their work science, from what I've seen. In contrast, people whose work is more generally accepted as scientific, such as psychological and medical researchers, have certainly studied both gender identity and sex characteristics. I imagine (but might be wrong) that ascribed gender is more a topic for sociologists and other social scientists that empirically study social behavior or legal structures, but they definitely do study it.
- kofejnik 9y ago
  > empirically study social behavior or legal structures, but they definitely do study it. Astrologists study stars, too. Empirically.
  - ekiru 9y ago
    Are the social sciences universally not science or just when they study the processes by which society ascribes genders to individuals?
    - kofejnik 9y ago
      Mostly universally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
Sprocklem 9y ago
> there's no science around those, just word twisting and mental gymnastics. Why do you say that? What makes you so sure? https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-scientific-evidence-to-support-transgender-identity?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-scientific-evidence-to-su...
- kofejnik 9y ago
  Of course there's science around biological response to stimuli and its correlation to what person thinks of themselves, I wouldn't doubt that. What I'm sceptical about is "sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity." being so separate scientifically. I remember how about 10 years ago, everything seemed to be "a social concept", and I mean everything, including math and physics. Nowadays, it's all about 'identity'. Duh, I guess humanities "scholars" need something to write papers about.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > What I'm sceptical about is "sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity." being so separate scientifically. Scientifically, they are (or, rather, gender identity and sex-correlated biological traits) are actually, apparently, fairly related, in ways which seem consistent with the idea that trans and non-binary gender identity is an expression of an underlying non-binary (if strongly bimodal) biological reality, and that ascribed gender based on a binary conception of sex is as poor a match for biology as it is for gender identity. > Nowadays, it's all about 'identity'. The three-way divide between objective traits, externally ascribed status, and identity or self-ascribed status, and it's generally importance a in uunderstandinghuman social interaction, is decidedly not a new thing.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> there's no science around those There's considerable science around them and there interrelationship. > "Gender studies" and such are not science in any form. Gender (and, likewise, ethnic, etc.) studies is an interdisciplinary domain that includes both science and non-science elements; the science around sex, gender, and gender identity, though, is found in human biology, psychology/neuroscience, sociology, anthropology, and other fields, though it is, of course, often of interest to gender/women's/queer studies.

kofejnik 9y ago
> Gender (and, likewise, ethnic, etc.) studies is an interdisciplinary domain ... Yes, like astrology and homeopathy

ekiru 9y ago

Gender studies is probably not what GP had in mind. People who do gender studies don't generally consider their work science, from what I've seen. In contrast, people whose work is more generally accepted as scientific, such as psychological and medical researchers, have certainly studied both gender identity and sex characteristics. I imagine (but might be wrong) that ascribed gender is more a topic for sociologists and other social scientists that empirically study social behavior or legal structures, but they definitely do study it.

kofejnik 9y ago
> empirically study social behavior or legal structures, but they definitely do study it. Astrologists study stars, too. Empirically.
- ekiru 9y ago
  Are the social sciences universally not science or just when they study the processes by which society ascribes genders to individuals?
  - kofejnik 9y ago
    Mostly universally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Sprocklem 9y ago

> there's no science around those, just word twisting and mental gymnastics. Why do you say that? What makes you so sure? https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-scientific-evidence-to-support-transgender-identity?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-scientific-evidence-to-su...

kofejnik 9y ago
Of course there's science around biological response to stimuli and its correlation to what person thinks of themselves, I wouldn't doubt that. What I'm sceptical about is "sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity." being so separate scientifically. I remember how about 10 years ago, everything seemed to be "a social concept", and I mean everything, including math and physics. Nowadays, it's all about 'identity'. Duh, I guess humanities "scholars" need something to write papers about.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > What I'm sceptical about is "sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity." being so separate scientifically. Scientifically, they are (or, rather, gender identity and sex-correlated biological traits) are actually, apparently, fairly related, in ways which seem consistent with the idea that trans and non-binary gender identity is an expression of an underlying non-binary (if strongly bimodal) biological reality, and that ascribed gender based on a binary conception of sex is as poor a match for biology as it is for gender identity. > Nowadays, it's all about 'identity'. The three-way divide between objective traits, externally ascribed status, and identity or self-ascribed status, and it's generally importance a in uunderstandinghuman social interaction, is decidedly not a new thing.