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> Japan has a country wide stigma against people who wear tattoos due to Reasons I don't care about. Doesn't matter. Deal with different cultures. > This is e

> Japan has a country wide stigma against people who wear tattoos due to Reasons I don't care about. Doesn't matter. Deal with different cultures. > This is exactly the mentality being discussed in this thread that is so abhorrent. You don't see Japanese people strolling into an American house and telling everyone they should take their shoes off before entering. Why should their society turn a blind eye to foreigners and accept something that is non-trivially a massive taboo in their own country? Why shouldn't they? Everybody else has to. If a Japanese person owns a house in the U.S. and asks me to take off my shoes, maybe I should ignore that since my culture in my country doesn't do that? No, I'm not an asshole and I respect their culture, even if they want to practice it in my country. Obviously this is a trivial example, but it's not like tattoos representing gang membership/mafia is unique to Japan. Ever been to the U.S. ? Do people get kicked out of gyms here for having tattoos of any kind? People get offended by burqas so should I kick them out of the gym too if I don't like it because I believe it's a symbol of female oppression? It's a silly double standard you're pulling here and I'll have none of it.

bojo 9y ago
> If a Japanese person owns a house in the U.S. and asks me to take off my shoes, maybe I should ignore that since my culture in my country doesn't do that? No, I'm not an asshole and I respect their culture, even if they want to practice it in my country. But you won't respect their culture in their own country? Double standards indeed. Wearing your tattoo proudly in Japan is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate them. It's closer to "No shirt, No shoes, No service" policies in the West if anything.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  > But you won't respect their culture in their own country? Double standards indeed. Double standards not indeed. I respect both cultures, unless of course they are bigoted or racist. The difference here is in America you can wear tattoos, a headscarf, or even not take your shoes off when you enter a home, or take them off, we are cool with both - which was my point. > Wearing your tattoo proudly in Japan is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate them. It's closer to "No shirt, No shoes, No service" policies in the West if anything. Being gay is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate you. It's the exact same nonsense. What if the person used to be in a gang and changed their life around but can't afford to remove the tattoos? What if the tattoos symbolize something important in their life? What if they were taken as a sex slave and branded, but refused to be ashamed and cover up their tattoo? No matter how you try and spin it, it's bs. Japan (and anybody else for that matter) needs to respect people and other cultures like we do in the West.
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    > Tattoos are literally the same thing as being gay. Yep. Ok. Mhm.
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      Apparently you misunderstood. I didn't write tattoos are "literally the same thing as being gay". I showed the same faulty reasoning used in that's line of argument about tattoos. Or unless you did understand and you're just being intellectually dishonest. I'm not sure which one it is. I assume just a misunderstanding of what was written.
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        Next time try to use an analogy that doesn't need explanations to clarify why it isn't entirely broken. For example cut off fingers would've been a useful one, particularly in this context.
        muninn_ 9y ago
        It doesn't need an explanation since it's a pretty simple swap.
  - Veratyr 9y ago
    > The difference here is in America you can wear tattoos, a headscarf, or even not take your shoes off when you enter a home, or take them off, we are cool with both - which was my point. This depends heavily on the house you're entering. Some people, even born and bred Americans, prefer you take your shoes off. And it's important to note the reason you take your shoes off in Japan: Because they've been outside and are dirty and they don't want dirt on the floors. You'd take your shoes off before entering someone's house if they were covered in mud right? Same thing, different threshold. > It's the exact same nonsense. Being gay is an inherent part of who somebody is and being gay doesn't passively affect the people around you. Tattoos are the result of choices someone has made in the past and in Japan, as mentioned above, that generally means Yakuza. Would you think it unreasonable if a family restaurant asked the Hells Angels to leave? > Japan (and anybody else for that matter) needs to respect people and other cultures like we do in the West. Would you accept it if someone from a Middle Eastern country came to the US with their multiple wives and you could hear the beatings at night? Of course not. Western countries have a threshold for what they'll tolerate from other cultures and so does Japan. We in the West also expect other people to at least try to fit in to our culture and I don't think it's unreasonable that Japan does the same.
fenomas 9y ago
It might help to understand that, broadly speaking, businesses in Japan that forbid tattoos are usually fine if the person covers up the tattoo with clothing or a sticker, etc. In fact stickers for this purpose are in shops - a friend told me a public bath once even provided her with one when she forgot. So, while I don't agree with it, it's not exactly the human rights crisis you're envisioning. Also, it sounds like you're holding very strong opinions about something you don't know any details of, which is generally a bad idea.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  > It might help to understand that, broadly speaking, businesses in Japan that forbid tattoos are usually fine if the person covers up the tattoo with clothing or a sticker, etc. In fact stickers for this purpose are in shops - a friend told me a public bath once even provided her with one when she forgot. But this isn't ok. That's the point. > So, while I don't agree with it, it's not exactly the human rights crisis you're envisioning. ??? I think that Japanese should be accepting of other people and cultures. It happens to be that we're talking about tattoos, but it could easily be something else. > Also, it sounds like you're holding very strong opinions about something you don't know any details of, which is generally a bad idea. False.
  - fenomas 9y ago
    > I think that Japanese should be accepting of other people and cultures. Asking A to respect B's culture of not covering up tattoos in the onsen is not materially different from asking B to respect A's culture of covering up tattoos in the onsen.
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      Sure so why do we have a double standard in the West?

bojo 9y ago

> If a Japanese person owns a house in the U.S. and asks me to take off my shoes, maybe I should ignore that since my culture in my country doesn't do that? No, I'm not an asshole and I respect their culture, even if they want to practice it in my country. But you won't respect their culture in their own country? Double standards indeed. Wearing your tattoo proudly in Japan is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate them. It's closer to "No shirt, No shoes, No service" policies in the West if anything.

muninn_ 9y ago
> But you won't respect their culture in their own country? Double standards indeed. Double standards not indeed. I respect both cultures, unless of course they are bigoted or racist. The difference here is in America you can wear tattoos, a headscarf, or even not take your shoes off when you enter a home, or take them off, we are cool with both - which was my point. > Wearing your tattoo proudly in Japan is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate them. It's closer to "No shirt, No shoes, No service" policies in the West if anything. Being gay is perfectly fine. Just be prepared to be asked to leave an establishment that doesn't tolerate you. It's the exact same nonsense. What if the person used to be in a gang and changed their life around but can't afford to remove the tattoos? What if the tattoos symbolize something important in their life? What if they were taken as a sex slave and branded, but refused to be ashamed and cover up their tattoo? No matter how you try and spin it, it's bs. Japan (and anybody else for that matter) needs to respect people and other cultures like we do in the West.
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  > Tattoos are literally the same thing as being gay. Yep. Ok. Mhm.
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Apparently you misunderstood. I didn't write tattoos are "literally the same thing as being gay". I showed the same faulty reasoning used in that's line of argument about tattoos. Or unless you did understand and you're just being intellectually dishonest. I'm not sure which one it is. I assume just a misunderstanding of what was written.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      Next time try to use an analogy that doesn't need explanations to clarify why it isn't entirely broken. For example cut off fingers would've been a useful one, particularly in this context.
      - muninn_ 9y ago
        It doesn't need an explanation since it's a pretty simple swap.
- Veratyr 9y ago
  > The difference here is in America you can wear tattoos, a headscarf, or even not take your shoes off when you enter a home, or take them off, we are cool with both - which was my point. This depends heavily on the house you're entering. Some people, even born and bred Americans, prefer you take your shoes off. And it's important to note the reason you take your shoes off in Japan: Because they've been outside and are dirty and they don't want dirt on the floors. You'd take your shoes off before entering someone's house if they were covered in mud right? Same thing, different threshold. > It's the exact same nonsense. Being gay is an inherent part of who somebody is and being gay doesn't passively affect the people around you. Tattoos are the result of choices someone has made in the past and in Japan, as mentioned above, that generally means Yakuza. Would you think it unreasonable if a family restaurant asked the Hells Angels to leave? > Japan (and anybody else for that matter) needs to respect people and other cultures like we do in the West. Would you accept it if someone from a Middle Eastern country came to the US with their multiple wives and you could hear the beatings at night? Of course not. Western countries have a threshold for what they'll tolerate from other cultures and so does Japan. We in the West also expect other people to at least try to fit in to our culture and I don't think it's unreasonable that Japan does the same.

fenomas 9y ago

It might help to understand that, broadly speaking, businesses in Japan that forbid tattoos are usually fine if the person covers up the tattoo with clothing or a sticker, etc. In fact stickers for this purpose are in shops - a friend told me a public bath once even provided her with one when she forgot. So, while I don't agree with it, it's not exactly the human rights crisis you're envisioning. Also, it sounds like you're holding very strong opinions about something you don't know any details of, which is generally a bad idea.

muninn_ 9y ago
> It might help to understand that, broadly speaking, businesses in Japan that forbid tattoos are usually fine if the person covers up the tattoo with clothing or a sticker, etc. In fact stickers for this purpose are in shops - a friend told me a public bath once even provided her with one when she forgot. But this isn't ok. That's the point. > So, while I don't agree with it, it's not exactly the human rights crisis you're envisioning. ??? I think that Japanese should be accepting of other people and cultures. It happens to be that we're talking about tattoos, but it could easily be something else. > Also, it sounds like you're holding very strong opinions about something you don't know any details of, which is generally a bad idea. False.
- fenomas 9y ago
  > I think that Japanese should be accepting of other people and cultures. Asking A to respect B's culture of not covering up tattoos in the onsen is not materially different from asking B to respect A's culture of covering up tattoos in the onsen.
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Sure so why do we have a double standard in the West?