8 ms·

Microsoft is Hiring Go engineers to work on Kubernetes

143 points by wilsonfiifi 9y ago

holydude 9y ago
I would really love for Microsoft to cooperate on Go with Google. Of course not the C# approach to sink in all the features but maybe releasing an official pkg for win32 api and maybe even the GUI.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Maybe Google could learn how to implement generics....
majewsky 9y ago
Not surprising, given that they recently acquired Deis (the company behind https://github.com/kubernetes/helm https://github.com/kubernetes/helm).
- brianwawok 9y ago
  Hum I was thinking about switching to helm. I think I will steer clear now.
  - nikon 9y ago
    I found it has strange defaults (all services publicly exposed) and quite unfriendly to automate. Ended up sticking with native deployments.
    - brianwawok 9y ago
      Yah so the few helm charts I have used, I had not seen a huge value. If I wanted to change something without a hook, I end up using my own dockerfile anyway.. so I guess it is helpful as just a reference on how to get a service to work, but not that useful for prod deploys.
      - Voloskaya 9y ago
        It can be very helpful for complex deployments. For example, if you want to deploy a distributed TensorFlow training on kubernetes with multiple parameter servers and task servers, it is a nightmare to do just with kubernetes yaml templates. Helm and it's go templating makes it much much easier.
      - bryanlarsen 9y ago
        We've standardized on helm for prod deploys. Perhaps it's not a huge value, but it is a convenient way to bundle together a set of configs, templatize them and manage them.
        majewsky 9y ago
        Seconded. We use Helm to deploy OpenStack (and various supporting services) on Kubernetes: https://github.com/sapcc/helm-charts https://github.com/sapcc/helm-charts and https://github.com/sapcc/openstack-helm https://github.com/sapcc/openstack-helm
      - AndyNemmity 9y ago
        I don't think we could live without helm charts. There are so many moving parts, and developers, it really makes life far easier.
        AndyNemmity 9y ago
        Of course I made this comment today, and have spent the last hour trying to fix an issue. Funny how life works like that :)
  - crb 9y ago
    Deis wrote Helm v1 (now known as Helm Classic: https://github.com/helm/helm-classic https://github.com/helm/helm-classic). Deis and Google (as well as others) collaborated on the current v2, building on Google's open source Deployment Manager (which you can see at https://github.com/gabrtv/deployment-manager https://github.com/gabrtv/deployment-manager) - itself derived from Google's Cloud Deployment Manager (https://cloud.google.com/deployment-manager/ https://cloud.google.com/deployment-manager/) The good thing about open source is, it doesn't really matter who wrote it.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    Why? Azure can only benefit from this and Azure's pretty damn good right now. It seems like an alignment that will be beneficial for everyone involved. No matter where you are, Microsoft gives you far better guarantees _and_ technical options to make sure your systems are your own. If you're going to interact with EU folks, Azure is by far the best way to still get modern cloud benefits and obey privacy and data locality laws. Sadly they've discovered that's only really an enterprise play. Even if it's cheaper, Startups just don't care enough (truth be told, they can't generally source good distributed systems and even in the EU view regulatory compliance like tech debt). Grabbing helm, I think MS is trying to appeal to the smaller market by adopting Google's (very interesting and good) approach of making the core admin layer open source. Microsoft hasn't shown interest (or has refrained from) making many fully batteries-included-but-now-you-can-never-leave approach Google has (which has mixed results, GAE was a disaster but Firebase seems very good?), so they need something sustainable to market Azure to smaller customers (their current strategy is substantial subsidization).
- _pmf_ 9y ago
  > Not surprising, given that they recently acquired Deis Hmm, I wonder where that company will be in one year ...
  - geodel 9y ago
    You mean shutdown or moved to Seattle?
hit8run 9y ago
I was introduced to the Kubernetes source code by an Redhat Kubernetes Core Contributor. He showed me the nasty parts how they solved the lack of generics. Actually they use strings to concat valid go source code based on reflections. A little tedious but given the constraints for language choice they had (fast, compiled binary, close to the metal) I think Go is still a decent choice for Kubernetes.
- nikon 9y ago
  Could you link to that area? Would be interesting to see.
  - Vendan 9y ago
    Here's one example file: https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/blob/master/cmd/libs/go2idl/client-gen/generators/generator_for_clientset.go https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/blob/master/cmd/lib... It all seems to be using https://github.com/kubernetes/gengo https://github.com/kubernetes/gengo
    - smarterclayton 9y ago
      As one of the perpetrators of gengo, we focused on simple, fast, and dirty. We wanted something a little higher level than Go AST to deal with types (for gen), and we knew we wanted to gen a ton of code. Some of the Kube code generation would not be solved by generics (or at least, not obviously) such as our API conversion logic which defines arbitrary transforms between structs and generates the rest. The others (proto, defaulting, etc) would.
- secure 9y ago
  Could that Core Contributor possibly contribute a report to https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/ExperienceReports#generics https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/ExperienceReports#generics? :)
- lmm 9y ago
  Go isn't particularly fast or close to the metal as compiled languages go - I feel like a lot of people compare it against scripting languages but those aren't the only alternatives. If GC is acceptable you have a wealth of mature languages available with a proper type system, e.g. OCaml.
mtgx 9y ago
I think it's clear now. Microsoft simply loves Google! Sorry, couldn't help myself with all the "Microsoft loves Linux because it's working on some Linux code" arguments around here. Microsoft only does what suits Microsoft's interests. If they want to use Kubernettes and they need Go engineers for that, or to support Go in any way, then they'll do it, especially if it makes strategic and financial sense for them to do so.
- jrimbault 9y ago
  It's also huge enough that it's able to make contradictory moves.
- digitalzombie 9y ago
  They can't let Google eat up another space. They lost to the search engine. I think Microsoft have waken up and realize they need to be active in all spaces that open source is at. It seems like this moves will help their cloud business since there are so much money in there. Supposely their Azure cloud is doing well and I guess they need to keep at it. I agree that they're not doing it for the pure of their heart but rather it's money driven and fear of being left behind again.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    So when do they throw their Microsoft wrench in it.. "Oh and these Kubernetes features only work on Azure Cloud(tm) running Windows Server(tm), or Microsoft Linux(tm)." I don't know.. does anyone that isn't a .net shop use Azure? It seems if you are a .net shop, Azure is the best choice. If you are not a .net shop, why use Azure? If Microsoft is going to reach a compelling chunk of AWS and GCE linux developers, I don't think they are going have that easy of a time...
    - nxc18 9y ago
      In my very limited experience Azure is much, much nicer than AWS from the admin experience. Its kind of embarrassing for Amazon how bad AWS is in that area. Google CE also has very nice UI. I understand that Azure is competitive on price, and they do support all of the linuxy things you'd expect from AWS or GCE. Unfortunately all that comes at the expense of reliability from what I've seen. :/
deckarep 9y ago
Can't wait for Kubernetes Home Edition, Kubernetes Premium or Kubernetes Server Edition....I know which one we're getting.
- foo101 9y ago
  This is not Reddit! Please post substantively on Hacker News or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html reply
  - thinbeige 9y ago
    It also says: 'Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.' So calm down.
    - foo101 9y ago
      I don't find myself uncivil. I would totally say what I said in a face-to-face conversation to preserve the decorum of a forum.
mandeepj 9y ago
You might find it relevant. Build a container from scratch using GO https://about.sourcegraph.com/go/functional-programming-in-go https://about.sourcegraph.com/go/functional-programming-in-g...
- leastangle 9y ago
  Given "Linux Namespaces and Go Don't Mix" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14470231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14470231) I am not so sure?
  - mandeepj 9y ago
    Sorry. My Bad. I meant to provide this link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuvDm8IC-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuvDm8IC-4 I screwed up during copy+paste
rusanu 9y ago
I also saw today this article Microsoft Prepares SQL Server 2017 for Linux and Containers [0], from this tweet[1] "Microsoft Prepares SQL Server 2017 for Linux and Containers, SQL Server lab runs on kubernetes and docker". If they moved the entire SQL lab (many thousands of machines) to Kubernetes is quite a big deal. They're probably warming up on how to manage it at scale, and I'm pretty sure that moving Azure SQL DB infrastructure to it is the goal. If they can get better isolation and higher density that today (some Azure Fabric derivative, afaik), it would save tonnes of moneys. [0] https://thenewstack.io/sql-server-2017-brings-microsofts-database-linux-container-worlds/ https://thenewstack.io/sql-server-2017-brings-microsofts-dat... [1] https://twitter.com/slava_oks/status/887359748047216640 https://twitter.com/slava_oks/status/887359748047216640

143 points by wilsonfiifi 9y ago

I would really love for Microsoft to cooperate on Go with Google. Of course not the C# approach to sink in all the features but maybe releasing an official pkg for win32 api and maybe even the GUI.

pjmlp 9y ago
Maybe Google could learn how to implement generics....

majewsky 9y ago

Not surprising, given that they recently acquired Deis (the company behind https://github.com/kubernetes/helm https://github.com/kubernetes/helm).

brianwawok 9y ago
Hum I was thinking about switching to helm. I think I will steer clear now.
- nikon 9y ago
  I found it has strange defaults (all services publicly exposed) and quite unfriendly to automate. Ended up sticking with native deployments.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    Yah so the few helm charts I have used, I had not seen a huge value. If I wanted to change something without a hook, I end up using my own dockerfile anyway.. so I guess it is helpful as just a reference on how to get a service to work, but not that useful for prod deploys.
    - Voloskaya 9y ago
      It can be very helpful for complex deployments. For example, if you want to deploy a distributed TensorFlow training on kubernetes with multiple parameter servers and task servers, it is a nightmare to do just with kubernetes yaml templates. Helm and it's go templating makes it much much easier.
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      We've standardized on helm for prod deploys. Perhaps it's not a huge value, but it is a convenient way to bundle together a set of configs, templatize them and manage them.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        Seconded. We use Helm to deploy OpenStack (and various supporting services) on Kubernetes: https://github.com/sapcc/helm-charts https://github.com/sapcc/helm-charts and https://github.com/sapcc/openstack-helm https://github.com/sapcc/openstack-helm
    - AndyNemmity 9y ago
      I don't think we could live without helm charts. There are so many moving parts, and developers, it really makes life far easier.
      - AndyNemmity 9y ago
        Of course I made this comment today, and have spent the last hour trying to fix an issue. Funny how life works like that :)
- crb 9y ago
  Deis wrote Helm v1 (now known as Helm Classic: https://github.com/helm/helm-classic https://github.com/helm/helm-classic). Deis and Google (as well as others) collaborated on the current v2, building on Google's open source Deployment Manager (which you can see at https://github.com/gabrtv/deployment-manager https://github.com/gabrtv/deployment-manager) - itself derived from Google's Cloud Deployment Manager (https://cloud.google.com/deployment-manager/ https://cloud.google.com/deployment-manager/) The good thing about open source is, it doesn't really matter who wrote it.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Why? Azure can only benefit from this and Azure's pretty damn good right now. It seems like an alignment that will be beneficial for everyone involved. No matter where you are, Microsoft gives you far better guarantees _and_ technical options to make sure your systems are your own. If you're going to interact with EU folks, Azure is by far the best way to still get modern cloud benefits and obey privacy and data locality laws. Sadly they've discovered that's only really an enterprise play. Even if it's cheaper, Startups just don't care enough (truth be told, they can't generally source good distributed systems and even in the EU view regulatory compliance like tech debt). Grabbing helm, I think MS is trying to appeal to the smaller market by adopting Google's (very interesting and good) approach of making the core admin layer open source. Microsoft hasn't shown interest (or has refrained from) making many fully batteries-included-but-now-you-can-never-leave approach Google has (which has mixed results, GAE was a disaster but Firebase seems very good?), so they need something sustainable to market Azure to smaller customers (their current strategy is substantial subsidization).
_pmf_ 9y ago
> Not surprising, given that they recently acquired Deis Hmm, I wonder where that company will be in one year ...
- geodel 9y ago
  You mean shutdown or moved to Seattle?

hit8run 9y ago

I was introduced to the Kubernetes source code by an Redhat Kubernetes Core Contributor. He showed me the nasty parts how they solved the lack of generics. Actually they use strings to concat valid go source code based on reflections. A little tedious but given the constraints for language choice they had (fast, compiled binary, close to the metal) I think Go is still a decent choice for Kubernetes.

nikon 9y ago
Could you link to that area? Would be interesting to see.
- Vendan 9y ago
  Here's one example file: https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/blob/master/cmd/libs/go2idl/client-gen/generators/generator_for_clientset.go https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/blob/master/cmd/lib... It all seems to be using https://github.com/kubernetes/gengo https://github.com/kubernetes/gengo
  - smarterclayton 9y ago
    As one of the perpetrators of gengo, we focused on simple, fast, and dirty. We wanted something a little higher level than Go AST to deal with types (for gen), and we knew we wanted to gen a ton of code. Some of the Kube code generation would not be solved by generics (or at least, not obviously) such as our API conversion logic which defines arbitrary transforms between structs and generates the rest. The others (proto, defaulting, etc) would.
secure 9y ago
Could that Core Contributor possibly contribute a report to https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/ExperienceReports#generics https://github.com/golang/go/wiki/ExperienceReports#generics? :)
lmm 9y ago
Go isn't particularly fast or close to the metal as compiled languages go - I feel like a lot of people compare it against scripting languages but those aren't the only alternatives. If GC is acceptable you have a wealth of mature languages available with a proper type system, e.g. OCaml.

mtgx 9y ago

I think it's clear now. Microsoft simply loves Google! Sorry, couldn't help myself with all the "Microsoft loves Linux because it's working on some Linux code" arguments around here. Microsoft only does what suits Microsoft's interests. If they want to use Kubernettes and they need Go engineers for that, or to support Go in any way, then they'll do it, especially if it makes strategic and financial sense for them to do so.

jrimbault 9y ago
It's also huge enough that it's able to make contradictory moves.
digitalzombie 9y ago
They can't let Google eat up another space. They lost to the search engine. I think Microsoft have waken up and realize they need to be active in all spaces that open source is at. It seems like this moves will help their cloud business since there are so much money in there. Supposely their Azure cloud is doing well and I guess they need to keep at it. I agree that they're not doing it for the pure of their heart but rather it's money driven and fear of being left behind again.
- brianwawok 9y ago
  So when do they throw their Microsoft wrench in it.. "Oh and these Kubernetes features only work on Azure Cloud(tm) running Windows Server(tm), or Microsoft Linux(tm)." I don't know.. does anyone that isn't a .net shop use Azure? It seems if you are a .net shop, Azure is the best choice. If you are not a .net shop, why use Azure? If Microsoft is going to reach a compelling chunk of AWS and GCE linux developers, I don't think they are going have that easy of a time...
  - nxc18 9y ago
    In my very limited experience Azure is much, much nicer than AWS from the admin experience. Its kind of embarrassing for Amazon how bad AWS is in that area. Google CE also has very nice UI. I understand that Azure is competitive on price, and they do support all of the linuxy things you'd expect from AWS or GCE. Unfortunately all that comes at the expense of reliability from what I've seen. :/

deckarep 9y ago

Can't wait for Kubernetes Home Edition, Kubernetes Premium or Kubernetes Server Edition....I know which one we're getting.

foo101 9y ago
This is not Reddit! Please post substantively on Hacker News or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html reply
- thinbeige 9y ago
  It also says: 'Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.' So calm down.
  - foo101 9y ago
    I don't find myself uncivil. I would totally say what I said in a face-to-face conversation to preserve the decorum of a forum.

mandeepj 9y ago

You might find it relevant. Build a container from scratch using GO https://about.sourcegraph.com/go/functional-programming-in-go https://about.sourcegraph.com/go/functional-programming-in-g...

leastangle 9y ago
Given "Linux Namespaces and Go Don't Mix" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14470231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14470231) I am not so sure?
- mandeepj 9y ago
  Sorry. My Bad. I meant to provide this link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuvDm8IC-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPuvDm8IC-4 I screwed up during copy+paste

rusanu 9y ago

I also saw today this article Microsoft Prepares SQL Server 2017 for Linux and Containers [0], from this tweet[1] "Microsoft Prepares SQL Server 2017 for Linux and Containers, SQL Server lab runs on kubernetes and docker". If they moved the entire SQL lab (many thousands of machines) to Kubernetes is quite a big deal. They're probably warming up on how to manage it at scale, and I'm pretty sure that moving Azure SQL DB infrastructure to it is the goal. If they can get better isolation and higher density that today (some Azure Fabric derivative, afaik), it would save tonnes of moneys. [0] https://thenewstack.io/sql-server-2017-brings-microsofts-database-linux-container-worlds/ https://thenewstack.io/sql-server-2017-brings-microsofts-dat... [1] https://twitter.com/slava_oks/status/887359748047216640 https://twitter.com/slava_oks/status/887359748047216640