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> whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner Exactly that. If you'

> whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".

coldtea 9y ago
>Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner". No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking. What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. That's what gives rise to the feeling of being "forever a foreigner". You never escape it. It's very simple.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. Which would be a statistically sound assumption. In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that. It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the assumption that a Chinese in the US is a foreigner. Plus, the US doesn't have any ethnical cohesion anyway, so even a newly arrived asian, french, russian, or latin american etc, fits right in with the general population. Given that, the real "forever a foreigner" problem to me would have to do with the acceptance (or lack thereof) of those that know you (e.g. how colleagues, neighbors, etc see you), not how random strangers see you. That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      > Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese. > That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner... I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. You're taking a very inconsiderate side of this argument, not to mention incorrect.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%). But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out. I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan. People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners. What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.
        brucephillips 9y ago
        > What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.

coldtea 9y ago

>Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner". No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking. What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.

brucephillips 9y ago
Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. That's what gives rise to the feeling of being "forever a foreigner". You never escape it. It's very simple.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. Which would be a statistically sound assumption. In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that. It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the assumption that a Chinese in the US is a foreigner. Plus, the US doesn't have any ethnical cohesion anyway, so even a newly arrived asian, french, russian, or latin american etc, fits right in with the general population. Given that, the real "forever a foreigner" problem to me would have to do with the acceptance (or lack thereof) of those that know you (e.g. how colleagues, neighbors, etc see you), not how random strangers see you. That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    > Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese. > That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner... I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. You're taking a very inconsiderate side of this argument, not to mention incorrect.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%). But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out. I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan. People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners. What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.
      - brucephillips 9y ago
        > What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X. Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.