6 ms·

> She was kicked out of the sauna. She said "At this point I don't look very female", and that her drivers license reflects a male identity and she hadn't start

> She was kicked out of the sauna. She said "At this point I don't look very female", and that her drivers license reflects a male identity and she hadn't started hormone therapy. As a non-American, I don't understand. Do you mean that any male can claim to be a trans-female at any time and therefore expect to be allowed to use women's sauna? And this is how it should be? I mean, isn't there possibility for abuse? And not agreeing with this labels you a terrible person? While at the same time, feminists scream abuse when someone looks at them inappropriately on the street. I am completely baffled.

influx 9y ago
Correct, a gender fluid person may feel more male some days and more female other days. This has nothing to do with sexuality or genitals. In fact, cisgender heterosexual men who express a preference for women born with a vagina may be transphobic against women who have a penis.
- kofejnik 9y ago
  I honestly cannot tell if you're being serious now
  - aaomidi 9y ago
    Why? Gender is a spectrum and you can fall anywhere on this spectrum. It is also not biological, it can change anytime and multiple times. As dragonwriter put it earlier, your claim relies on two fundamental assumptions that are plain incorrect.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - ljlkajlkdj 9y ago
      Are you defining gender, or mental disorders? Because "not biological, it can change anytime" sounds more like the latter.
      - aaomidi 9y ago
        What do you define as a mental disorder? Anything that differs from the norm? How do you define the norm? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity Even if it is, as you put it, a mental disorder, let's not use that as an excuse to dismiss it, alright?
        9j9j9j 9y ago
        Even if we consider Wikipedia credible source (which is already a stretch) then the article you linked says nothing about gender being "not biogical" and "changing anytime".
    - kofejnik 9y ago
      >> Gender is a spectrum Lol >> It is also not biological, it can change anytime and multiple times. Too bad 15 y.o. me missed that and didn't get to shower with the girls. >> your claim which claim? >> two fundamental assumptions that are plain incorrect. [citation required]
      - aaomidi 9y ago
        >> Lol Is that your response to this? "Lol"? Nice way to have a discourse. Looks like you've made up your mind and are dismissing anything that is different with your opinion. >> which claim? The claim that this creates abuse potential. >> [citation required] What do I need to give you citation on? That same-sex abuse can happen? Or that sexual preferences are by default hetrosexual? Pretty sure both of those are a non-question.
        kofejnik 9y ago
        > Is that your response to this? "Lol"? Nice way to have a discourse. Sorry for a little childishness, but you're making preposterous claims ('gender is a spectrum'), so you have to support them. Can I claim to be a female today and use girls' shower? Would you personally be ok with that? Can I declare myself an apache attack helicopter then? > The claim that this creates abuse potential. Seriously? Feminists demonize men for inappropriate looks, but you think that shared locker rooms are not a problem?
        smt88 9y ago
        "Gender is a spectrum" isn't a preposterous claim. You may not understand the difference between gender (a social construct) and sex (a physiological issue).
        kofejnik 9y ago
        > the difference between gender (a social construct) and sex (a physiological issue). I yet have to see a proof it actually exists
- dang 9y ago
  Trolling on divisive topics will get you banned here, so please don't do it again. It's hard enough to prevent threads from generating into tedious flamewars without them being actively shoved thither.
sharemywin 9y ago
I think the issue is more about whether someone's real name should be used in a controversial "news" piece. Even, if it is factually correct. As background north-carolina has parts of a bill dealing with transgender people. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/30/522009335/north-carolina-lawmakers-governor-announce-compromise-to-repeal-bathroom-bill http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/30/522009335/...
hiram112 9y ago
Yes this is what the left has been pushing in America. The whole issue, having never really crossed the minds of most people, suddenly became front and center with the help of a coordinated push by most of the liberal media. I don't have anything against transgenders, nor do I really care what bathrooms or changing rooms someone decides to use. And I roll my eyes at the typical fear mongering by all the 'what about my little girl having to share a bathroom with a pedo tranny guy' on the right. The issue I have is that the left doesn't understand science with regard to gender, nor do they realize all the negative consequences their own gender-less policies are going to cause. We're already seeing biological men, claiming to be women, dominating women's sports. The Soviet bloc countries used to cheat at the Olympics, dosing their women with large amounts of androgens. Now shady teams will just use men who've decided they're women - how dare you tell me what gender I am - and sweep up the golds. It won't be long until men start taking advantage of all the female scholarships, hiring quotas, and every other benefit feminists have pushed for women. And the minute these cases go to court, the same tactics the left used to push their agendas are going to bite them in the ass due to case precedence. And now we're moving into to the idea that race can be 'decided' by the individual. Personally, it's about time. As a white cis male, I'm tired of being the punching bag due my so-called privilege. I'm looking forward to my new job at Google @ $250k / year and masters at Harvard. Cause now, as I've decided to be an African-American female engineer, it appears the barriers to entry have just been lowered.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > The issue I have is that the left doesn't understand science with regard to gender That seems to be the right's problem with all three of sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity. Heck, even more basically than the science around those, simply understanding the difference between the three concepts seems problematic. > And now we're moving into to the idea that race can be 'decided' by the individual. Actually, race in the US has generally been officially been about identity and not strictly governed by ancestry or non-identity ascribed status [0] for much longer than trans rights have even been a visible issue. And, despite that, the idea that someone can have a racial identity out of line with externally ascribed race is nonetheless not remotely widely accepted on the left, despite it being the long-standing official case; see the Rachel Dolezal case. So, the idea that transgender rights, is the leading edge of a liberal scheme to impose acceptance of trans-racial identity is deeply disconnected from the facts. [0] except that in some contexts Native American / Alaskan Native identity requires confirmation by ascribed status from a recognized group, because it operates somewhat like a nationality rather than other races.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> I mean, isn't there possibility for abuse? There's a possibility for abuse one way or the other; the idea that segregation by sex or otherwise ascribed gender not aligned with gender identity is a prevention of abuse rests on a (usually, not explicitly stated) combination of beliefs that does not hold up to scrutiny, to wit: (1) Abuse occurs only in the direction of sexual preference, (2) Sexual preference is universally heterosexual based on sex or socially ascribed gender (rather than gender identity) of both the actor and the object of potential desire.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dangerface 9y ago
In my country saunas are unisex like swimming pools, I have never heard of it being an issue.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- gambiting 9y ago
  Yeah, I've been to saunas all over Europe and I've never seen a gender-segregated one.
cmurf 9y ago
I'm completely baffled why people care where others go potty. But then I'm also baffled by the fixation we have on sex separated public facilities. If it were up to be, we'd have a large unisex facility and one or two individual + family restrooms. That's it. Take your pick, but it's not separated by sex. Transgendered have been using the facility of their choice for decades with no problems. The controversy is just a recent phenomenon, manufacturered from the right wing Christian camp. To me they are fake Christians, a pseudo Christian cult, because they are not in any meaningful way Christian, they're just jerks who want to be vindictive, and use the government to punish people whose behavior they merely disagree with but otherwise cause no harm. These cultists see the U.S. as a Christian nation under threat, and they go on the attack to assert it as being properly a white Christian nation. So in my view, they can keep trying, but their ridiculous dying culture is a losing proposition. The more vindictive they are, the more people get tired of its pointlessness, and obsolescence. Sexual assault and lewd public behavior are already illegal. I see no reason to sanction people who are just peeing, pooping, and primping.
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14802256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14802256 and marked it off-topic.

influx 9y ago

Correct, a gender fluid person may feel more male some days and more female other days. This has nothing to do with sexuality or genitals. In fact, cisgender heterosexual men who express a preference for women born with a vagina may be transphobic against women who have a penis.

kofejnik 9y ago
I honestly cannot tell if you're being serious now
- aaomidi 9y ago
  Why? Gender is a spectrum and you can fall anywhere on this spectrum. It is also not biological, it can change anytime and multiple times. As dragonwriter put it earlier, your claim relies on two fundamental assumptions that are plain incorrect.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - ljlkajlkdj 9y ago
    Are you defining gender, or mental disorders? Because "not biological, it can change anytime" sounds more like the latter.
    - aaomidi 9y ago
      What do you define as a mental disorder? Anything that differs from the norm? How do you define the norm? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity Even if it is, as you put it, a mental disorder, let's not use that as an excuse to dismiss it, alright?
      - 9j9j9j 9y ago
        Even if we consider Wikipedia credible source (which is already a stretch) then the article you linked says nothing about gender being "not biogical" and "changing anytime".
  - kofejnik 9y ago
    >> Gender is a spectrum Lol >> It is also not biological, it can change anytime and multiple times. Too bad 15 y.o. me missed that and didn't get to shower with the girls. >> your claim which claim? >> two fundamental assumptions that are plain incorrect. [citation required]
    - aaomidi 9y ago
      >> Lol Is that your response to this? "Lol"? Nice way to have a discourse. Looks like you've made up your mind and are dismissing anything that is different with your opinion. >> which claim? The claim that this creates abuse potential. >> [citation required] What do I need to give you citation on? That same-sex abuse can happen? Or that sexual preferences are by default hetrosexual? Pretty sure both of those are a non-question.
      - kofejnik 9y ago
        > Is that your response to this? "Lol"? Nice way to have a discourse. Sorry for a little childishness, but you're making preposterous claims ('gender is a spectrum'), so you have to support them. Can I claim to be a female today and use girls' shower? Would you personally be ok with that? Can I declare myself an apache attack helicopter then? > The claim that this creates abuse potential. Seriously? Feminists demonize men for inappropriate looks, but you think that shared locker rooms are not a problem?
        smt88 9y ago
        "Gender is a spectrum" isn't a preposterous claim. You may not understand the difference between gender (a social construct) and sex (a physiological issue).
        kofejnik 9y ago
        > the difference between gender (a social construct) and sex (a physiological issue). I yet have to see a proof it actually exists
dang 9y ago
Trolling on divisive topics will get you banned here, so please don't do it again. It's hard enough to prevent threads from generating into tedious flamewars without them being actively shoved thither.

sharemywin 9y ago

I think the issue is more about whether someone's real name should be used in a controversial "news" piece. Even, if it is factually correct. As background north-carolina has parts of a bill dealing with transgender people. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/30/522009335/north-carolina-lawmakers-governor-announce-compromise-to-repeal-bathroom-bill http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/30/522009335/...

hiram112 9y ago

Yes this is what the left has been pushing in America. The whole issue, having never really crossed the minds of most people, suddenly became front and center with the help of a coordinated push by most of the liberal media. I don't have anything against transgenders, nor do I really care what bathrooms or changing rooms someone decides to use. And I roll my eyes at the typical fear mongering by all the 'what about my little girl having to share a bathroom with a pedo tranny guy' on the right. The issue I have is that the left doesn't understand science with regard to gender, nor do they realize all the negative consequences their own gender-less policies are going to cause. We're already seeing biological men, claiming to be women, dominating women's sports. The Soviet bloc countries used to cheat at the Olympics, dosing their women with large amounts of androgens. Now shady teams will just use men who've decided they're women - how dare you tell me what gender I am - and sweep up the golds. It won't be long until men start taking advantage of all the female scholarships, hiring quotas, and every other benefit feminists have pushed for women. And the minute these cases go to court, the same tactics the left used to push their agendas are going to bite them in the ass due to case precedence. And now we're moving into to the idea that race can be 'decided' by the individual. Personally, it's about time. As a white cis male, I'm tired of being the punching bag due my so-called privilege. I'm looking forward to my new job at Google @ $250k / year and masters at Harvard. Cause now, as I've decided to be an African-American female engineer, it appears the barriers to entry have just been lowered.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> The issue I have is that the left doesn't understand science with regard to gender That seems to be the right's problem with all three of sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity. Heck, even more basically than the science around those, simply understanding the difference between the three concepts seems problematic. > And now we're moving into to the idea that race can be 'decided' by the individual. Actually, race in the US has generally been officially been about identity and not strictly governed by ancestry or non-identity ascribed status [0] for much longer than trans rights have even been a visible issue. And, despite that, the idea that someone can have a racial identity out of line with externally ascribed race is nonetheless not remotely widely accepted on the left, despite it being the long-standing official case; see the Rachel Dolezal case. So, the idea that transgender rights, is the leading edge of a liberal scheme to impose acceptance of trans-racial identity is deeply disconnected from the facts. [0] except that in some contexts Native American / Alaskan Native identity requires confirmation by ascribed status from a recognized group, because it operates somewhat like a nationality rather than other races.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> I mean, isn't there possibility for abuse? There's a possibility for abuse one way or the other; the idea that segregation by sex or otherwise ascribed gender not aligned with gender identity is a prevention of abuse rests on a (usually, not explicitly stated) combination of beliefs that does not hold up to scrutiny, to wit: (1) Abuse occurs only in the direction of sexual preference, (2) Sexual preference is universally heterosexual based on sex or socially ascribed gender (rather than gender identity) of both the actor and the object of potential desire.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dangerface 9y ago

In my country saunas are unisex like swimming pools, I have never heard of it being an issue.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
gambiting 9y ago
Yeah, I've been to saunas all over Europe and I've never seen a gender-segregated one.

cmurf 9y ago

I'm completely baffled why people care where others go potty. But then I'm also baffled by the fixation we have on sex separated public facilities. If it were up to be, we'd have a large unisex facility and one or two individual + family restrooms. That's it. Take your pick, but it's not separated by sex. Transgendered have been using the facility of their choice for decades with no problems. The controversy is just a recent phenomenon, manufacturered from the right wing Christian camp. To me they are fake Christians, a pseudo Christian cult, because they are not in any meaningful way Christian, they're just jerks who want to be vindictive, and use the government to punish people whose behavior they merely disagree with but otherwise cause no harm. These cultists see the U.S. as a Christian nation under threat, and they go on the attack to assert it as being properly a white Christian nation. So in my view, they can keep trying, but their ridiculous dying culture is a losing proposition. The more vindictive they are, the more people get tired of its pointlessness, and obsolescence. Sexual assault and lewd public behavior are already illegal. I see no reason to sanction people who are just peeing, pooping, and primping.

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14802256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14802256 and marked it off-topic.