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> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would star

> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.

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jaredklewis 9y ago
Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries. English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? When did I say it was offensive?
  - jaredklewis 9y ago
    Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment. Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white. It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way. Anyway rant over.
adrianN 9y ago
That's because America has many Asian residents that were actually born there and speak the language natively, whereas the gaijin in Japan are almost all not fluent in Japanese. How is it surprising that people would try the most likely language first?
- brucephillips 9y ago
  I never said it was surprising. What is surprising is how every respondent thus far has misinterpreted what I said.
  - jonathanstrange 9y ago
    After having followed this thread so far, I still don't get what message you actually intended to convey. It's obvious that talking English in the US is not on a par with talking Japanese in Japan and also not on a par with talking English in Japan. Talking to someone in English in the US is compatible with considering that person a foreigner and compatible with not considering that person a foreigner, whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner and talking Japanese with someone in Japan means that you accept that person as a non-foreigner. So what was your point?
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      > whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner". No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking. What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.
xfer 9y ago
What? That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? That doesn't happen to asians in the US, you know maybe because they don't know the asian language?
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? Yes, which is a source of white people being "forever foreigners" in Japan, which is exactly my point.
  - xfer 9y ago
    I don't understand, how does that make it "forever foreigners"? Have you tried telling them you understand japanese and continue conversation? How would the other person know if you arrived yesterday or living there for 20yrs? This is a pretty bad example imo.
    - brucephillips 9y ago
      "forever" because it's based on the color of my skin, which I can't change, and "foreigner" because they're assuming I don't speak the language of the land. It's quite simple. You seem to be assuming I think they're making a mistake by doing this, or for some reason shouldn't be doing it, which I never said.
    - watwut 9y ago
      I understand it as opposed to situation when you move from Germany to Italia. If you manage to learn the accent and language, you can pass as Italian and be treated exactly as one in every detail. In Japan, if you are white, it is not possible and you will never achieve that level of assimilation nor will your children.
  - Freak_NL 9y ago
    Statistically, they are right in assuming that you are probably not a speaker of Japanese. Of all white (or black) folk in Japan, perhaps 5% speaks enough Japanese to carry an every day conversation. The rest are tourists, business folk, and weeaboos. It never bothered me. Whenever I initiated a conversation people just spoke Japanese. Sometimes people would start in English, but the conversation always effortlessly slid into Japanese when I answered in Japanese. Further down from Tokyo the experience tends to be even simpler at times: either you speak Japanese, or you have no conversations at all.
S4M 9y ago
Well I live in Spain (Barcelona) and look Asian. It often happens to me that people start a conversation with me in English.
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  I am from Barcelona and it happens something similar with my Japanese wife, but with Spanish. She is not fluent in Catalan nor Spanish, but she can speak some Catalan. And every time, because she looks asian, everybody changes the conversation to Spanish even if she started talking in Catalan. Everybody assumes that she is Chinese as well...
  - S4M 9y ago
    Well I'm French (grew up and born in France, but my father is Vietnamese), and some people have trouble to accept that I am not from an Asian country. The conversation goes like this: "Where are you from?" "France" "Uh?? no, come on, seriously" "Yes, I'm from France" "OK, but... where are you born?" ""Uh... France...". By the way, my wife is also Japanese... it's possible that our wives know each other :)
jsmthrowaway 9y ago
Keep in mind that the US was entirely built from immigration, though, and most of us realize that the part after the hyphen is just as important as the part before it and often represents several generations of heritage. In other cultures, immigration might be more abnormal, resulting in folks uncertainly opening a hailing frequency with the strange probably-tourist Englishman they’ve encountered, whereas in America it’s quite trivial to glance past physical features and lead off in English. (Helps that it’s English, specifically, too.) In another light, I usually have a sense for whether my English will find purchase before speaking because American culture has subtle cues and tics even in the way one carries themselves. I don’t have the perspective of reversing the situation, but I’d totally buy a scenario where the same sense is difficult to ascertain inside other cultures. Then you have to think about which possibility is more polite/offensive between assuming their language or trying yours, especially in various cultures; we certainly look at this differently, given the first point.
ersii 9y ago
I guess I'll add an anecdata point to your anecdata point, I had multiple random Japanese persons initiate conversation with me in Japanese when I visited Japan for a couple of weeks. I'm a white, blond man and went together with my white blond girlfriend.
fiblye 9y ago
It highly depends on the city. In Kyoto, people only speak to me in English. I've even seen asians get talked to in English there when their fashion/behavior stands out as slightly non-Japanese. Everywhere else, I get straight, everyday Japanese thrown at me. Honestly, it could very well depend on the city how you get received. I live in a fairly rural area and it's adapt or go home here. If you live in this area, people seem to just assume you are decently adapted and don't need to be handled like an outsider.
- bojo 9y ago
  This has been my experience here in Osaka. Even though there were dozens of other Japanese around, an old man walked up and asked me in Japanese if I knew where the closest ATM for his particular bank was. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I think you eventually hit a threshold where you are somehow signaling via body language or manner that, as you say, you don't need to be handled like an outsider. Edit: I just noticed I have replied to you twice. We seem to be on the same page :)
fenomas 9y ago
> no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English Note that this is functionally equivalent to saying "the only people who started conversations with me were people who wanted to practice their English", and that's probably closer to what was going on. Personally, my first few years in Japan people started English conversations with me all the time, but at some point it slowed and then stopped - I can't even remember when last it happened. Whether that's due to something about me changing, or a byproduct of the places I hang out, etc., I have no idea.

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jaredklewis 9y ago

Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries. English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.

brucephillips 9y ago
> How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? When did I say it was offensive?
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment. Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white. It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way. Anyway rant over.

adrianN 9y ago

That's because America has many Asian residents that were actually born there and speak the language natively, whereas the gaijin in Japan are almost all not fluent in Japanese. How is it surprising that people would try the most likely language first?

brucephillips 9y ago
I never said it was surprising. What is surprising is how every respondent thus far has misinterpreted what I said.
- jonathanstrange 9y ago
  After having followed this thread so far, I still don't get what message you actually intended to convey. It's obvious that talking English in the US is not on a par with talking Japanese in Japan and also not on a par with talking English in Japan. Talking to someone in English in the US is compatible with considering that person a foreigner and compatible with not considering that person a foreigner, whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner and talking Japanese with someone in Japan means that you accept that person as a non-foreigner. So what was your point?
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    > whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner". No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking. What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.

xfer 9y ago

What? That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? That doesn't happen to asians in the US, you know maybe because they don't know the asian language?

brucephillips 9y ago
> That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? Yes, which is a source of white people being "forever foreigners" in Japan, which is exactly my point.
- xfer 9y ago
  I don't understand, how does that make it "forever foreigners"? Have you tried telling them you understand japanese and continue conversation? How would the other person know if you arrived yesterday or living there for 20yrs? This is a pretty bad example imo.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    "forever" because it's based on the color of my skin, which I can't change, and "foreigner" because they're assuming I don't speak the language of the land. It's quite simple. You seem to be assuming I think they're making a mistake by doing this, or for some reason shouldn't be doing it, which I never said.
  - watwut 9y ago
    I understand it as opposed to situation when you move from Germany to Italia. If you manage to learn the accent and language, you can pass as Italian and be treated exactly as one in every detail. In Japan, if you are white, it is not possible and you will never achieve that level of assimilation nor will your children.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  Statistically, they are right in assuming that you are probably not a speaker of Japanese. Of all white (or black) folk in Japan, perhaps 5% speaks enough Japanese to carry an every day conversation. The rest are tourists, business folk, and weeaboos. It never bothered me. Whenever I initiated a conversation people just spoke Japanese. Sometimes people would start in English, but the conversation always effortlessly slid into Japanese when I answered in Japanese. Further down from Tokyo the experience tends to be even simpler at times: either you speak Japanese, or you have no conversations at all.

S4M 9y ago

Well I live in Spain (Barcelona) and look Asian. It often happens to me that people start a conversation with me in English.

6t6t6t6 9y ago
I am from Barcelona and it happens something similar with my Japanese wife, but with Spanish. She is not fluent in Catalan nor Spanish, but she can speak some Catalan. And every time, because she looks asian, everybody changes the conversation to Spanish even if she started talking in Catalan. Everybody assumes that she is Chinese as well...
- S4M 9y ago
  Well I'm French (grew up and born in France, but my father is Vietnamese), and some people have trouble to accept that I am not from an Asian country. The conversation goes like this: "Where are you from?" "France" "Uh?? no, come on, seriously" "Yes, I'm from France" "OK, but... where are you born?" ""Uh... France...". By the way, my wife is also Japanese... it's possible that our wives know each other :)

jsmthrowaway 9y ago

Keep in mind that the US was entirely built from immigration, though, and most of us realize that the part after the hyphen is just as important as the part before it and often represents several generations of heritage. In other cultures, immigration might be more abnormal, resulting in folks uncertainly opening a hailing frequency with the strange probably-tourist Englishman they’ve encountered, whereas in America it’s quite trivial to glance past physical features and lead off in English. (Helps that it’s English, specifically, too.) In another light, I usually have a sense for whether my English will find purchase before speaking because American culture has subtle cues and tics even in the way one carries themselves. I don’t have the perspective of reversing the situation, but I’d totally buy a scenario where the same sense is difficult to ascertain inside other cultures. Then you have to think about which possibility is more polite/offensive between assuming their language or trying yours, especially in various cultures; we certainly look at this differently, given the first point.

ersii 9y ago

I guess I'll add an anecdata point to your anecdata point, I had multiple random Japanese persons initiate conversation with me in Japanese when I visited Japan for a couple of weeks. I'm a white, blond man and went together with my white blond girlfriend.

fiblye 9y ago

It highly depends on the city. In Kyoto, people only speak to me in English. I've even seen asians get talked to in English there when their fashion/behavior stands out as slightly non-Japanese. Everywhere else, I get straight, everyday Japanese thrown at me. Honestly, it could very well depend on the city how you get received. I live in a fairly rural area and it's adapt or go home here. If you live in this area, people seem to just assume you are decently adapted and don't need to be handled like an outsider.

bojo 9y ago
This has been my experience here in Osaka. Even though there were dozens of other Japanese around, an old man walked up and asked me in Japanese if I knew where the closest ATM for his particular bank was. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I think you eventually hit a threshold where you are somehow signaling via body language or manner that, as you say, you don't need to be handled like an outsider. Edit: I just noticed I have replied to you twice. We seem to be on the same page :)

fenomas 9y ago

> no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English Note that this is functionally equivalent to saying "the only people who started conversations with me were people who wanted to practice their English", and that's probably closer to what was going on. Personally, my first few years in Japan people started English conversations with me all the time, but at some point it slowed and then stopped - I can't even remember when last it happened. Whether that's due to something about me changing, or a byproduct of the places I hang out, etc., I have no idea.