5 ms·

I find the attitude of people from English-speaking countries that the rest of the world should speak fluent English quite puzzling. It is understandable if yo

I find the attitude of people from English-speaking countries that the rest of the world should speak fluent English quite puzzling. It is understandable if you are a professional dealing with foreign companies, or if you are involved in the tourism business; that leaves out the vast majority of the population, which is not willing to invest hundreds of hours learning a skill that does not provide any significant benefit in their daily lives. You are absolutely correct that the English taught is school is nearly useless, considering that in those 6 years my guess that English is taught some 2-3 hours per week. I would be curious to know how many people in US or UK consider themselves fluent in a foreign language for a class they took for a few years in middle/high school.

EliRivers 9y ago
I think you're unfairly generalising. I certainly never expect fluent English from people who don't have English as their first language. I do expect that people who studied a language for years at school should remember some, particularly if those school days were less than a decade ago. This is orthongonal to my suspicion (which I cannot prove) that English education in Japanese schools may emphasise formal rigour over conversation practice. Now that I think about it, in the UK the comedy archetype of an idiot going abroad who expects everyone to speak English is well-known and a figure of fun. Which would suggest that people broadly don't expect everyone overseas to speak English. I would be curious to know how many people in US or UK consider themselves fluent in a foreign language for a class they took for a few years in middle/high school. I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French (last lesson would have been about 22 years ago) to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing. I do not consider myself fluent. Of course, living and working in the UK, I do get opportunity to use it every so often, which helps a lot I expect.
- Kurtz79 9y ago
  "I think you're unfairly generalising. I certainly never expect fluent English from people who don't have English as their first language." That's definitely seems to be the attitude of the author, and that of many people I see posting here, or many people I see every day that do not even try learning some local word. I agree that I expressed my opinion like I was generalizing, not my intention. "I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing" As probably do most people learning English at school. It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency.
  - EliRivers 9y ago
    That's definitely seems to be the attitude of the author I interpret his words ("The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school") not to mean that he expects fluency. It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency. I disagree. I think the author simply says that the level of English is shockingly low. I don't think that we can infer from those words that he's expecting a high level of fluency.
peteretep 9y ago
> I find the attitude of people from > English-speaking countries that the > rest of the world should speak fluent > English quite puzzling I don't. If you can't speak English and you want to be a tourist in the vast majority of countries who speak a 3rd language, you'll be shit-out-of-luck.
fpig 9y ago
> I find the attitude of people from English-speaking countries that the rest of the world should speak fluent English quite puzzling. I've noticed the opposite attitude. At least among western countries, the opposition to forcing kids to learn English seems to be far more prevalent among Americans and Brits than among non-anglophones. In my country, English is mandatory in both primary and secondary education and this is not controversial in any way. It is considered common sense. You mention a lack of significant benefits to people's daily lives - of all the things kids learn in school, what is more useful than learning English? Very basic math certainly as it is necessary to function as an adult, but not much else. I don't remember what the anatomy of an arthropod is like nor do I need this information and I learned a ton of stuff like that in school, while being able to speak (and even more so read) English has opened many doors for me and been useful in so many ways. Academically, professionally and privately. For anglophones, they and their kids are going to speak English and be fine in the modern world either way. So it is easier for them to virtue signal by dismissing the importance of learning English and supporting some misguided idea of "language equality". A lot of anglophones also don't notice the incredible amount of information in English and the incredible amount of people who speak English to some degree because they take it for granted, causing them to underestimate the usefulness of the language. Japan may be an exception because it is culturally isolated compared to, for example, the EU. But still, I can't help but think investing more effort in teaching kids English would likely be more useful than at least some things they learn in school, even in Japan. Also, fluent vs nearly useless is a false dichotomy.
- watwut 9y ago
  Pretty much agree. Knowing English if you are not from America is super important - you are limited a lot if you don't know it. Maybe not if you work in agriculture or something like that, but anything beyond that requires it. And that is just talking about jobs. Wast amount of knowledge and entertainment is not translated to smaller languages and discussion happen in English. Especially in less popular areas. Includes science and technology btw. If you can not read English blog or documentation, then you will be limited as a programmer.
watwut 9y ago
If you spent six years learning English and can not have basic functional conversation in English, then the education is bad. For people who managed to learn foreign language with better method, shocking bad. It should be ok to criticize foreign school system when it seems to unperform.
fenomas 9y ago
> my guess that English is taught some 2-3 hours per week Neat, but your guess is wildly wrong, and you should therefore discard your conclusions. Japanese mid/high-schoolers take about as many hours of English as they do math, science, or Japanese, and most study further hours at cram schools. The fact that very few Japanese people can speak conversation English despite an extremely rigorous education is what people are talking about here - not whether Japanese people "should" (in a normative sense) speak English, as you're trying to imply.

EliRivers 9y ago

I think you're unfairly generalising. I certainly never expect fluent English from people who don't have English as their first language. I do expect that people who studied a language for years at school should remember some, particularly if those school days were less than a decade ago. This is orthongonal to my suspicion (which I cannot prove) that English education in Japanese schools may emphasise formal rigour over conversation practice. Now that I think about it, in the UK the comedy archetype of an idiot going abroad who expects everyone to speak English is well-known and a figure of fun. Which would suggest that people broadly don't expect everyone overseas to speak English. I would be curious to know how many people in US or UK consider themselves fluent in a foreign language for a class they took for a few years in middle/high school. I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French (last lesson would have been about 22 years ago) to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing. I do not consider myself fluent. Of course, living and working in the UK, I do get opportunity to use it every so often, which helps a lot I expect.

Kurtz79 9y ago
"I think you're unfairly generalising. I certainly never expect fluent English from people who don't have English as their first language." That's definitely seems to be the attitude of the author, and that of many people I see posting here, or many people I see every day that do not even try learning some local word. I agree that I expressed my opinion like I was generalizing, not my intention. "I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing" As probably do most people learning English at school. It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  That's definitely seems to be the attitude of the author I interpret his words ("The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school") not to mean that he expects fluency. It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency. I disagree. I think the author simply says that the level of English is shockingly low. I don't think that we can infer from those words that he's expecting a high level of fluency.

peteretep 9y ago

> I find the attitude of people from > English-speaking countries that the > rest of the world should speak fluent > English quite puzzling I don't. If you can't speak English and you want to be a tourist in the vast majority of countries who speak a 3rd language, you'll be shit-out-of-luck.

fpig 9y ago

> I find the attitude of people from English-speaking countries that the rest of the world should speak fluent English quite puzzling. I've noticed the opposite attitude. At least among western countries, the opposition to forcing kids to learn English seems to be far more prevalent among Americans and Brits than among non-anglophones. In my country, English is mandatory in both primary and secondary education and this is not controversial in any way. It is considered common sense. You mention a lack of significant benefits to people's daily lives - of all the things kids learn in school, what is more useful than learning English? Very basic math certainly as it is necessary to function as an adult, but not much else. I don't remember what the anatomy of an arthropod is like nor do I need this information and I learned a ton of stuff like that in school, while being able to speak (and even more so read) English has opened many doors for me and been useful in so many ways. Academically, professionally and privately. For anglophones, they and their kids are going to speak English and be fine in the modern world either way. So it is easier for them to virtue signal by dismissing the importance of learning English and supporting some misguided idea of "language equality". A lot of anglophones also don't notice the incredible amount of information in English and the incredible amount of people who speak English to some degree because they take it for granted, causing them to underestimate the usefulness of the language. Japan may be an exception because it is culturally isolated compared to, for example, the EU. But still, I can't help but think investing more effort in teaching kids English would likely be more useful than at least some things they learn in school, even in Japan. Also, fluent vs nearly useless is a false dichotomy.

watwut 9y ago
Pretty much agree. Knowing English if you are not from America is super important - you are limited a lot if you don't know it. Maybe not if you work in agriculture or something like that, but anything beyond that requires it. And that is just talking about jobs. Wast amount of knowledge and entertainment is not translated to smaller languages and discussion happen in English. Especially in less popular areas. Includes science and technology btw. If you can not read English blog or documentation, then you will be limited as a programmer.

watwut 9y ago

If you spent six years learning English and can not have basic functional conversation in English, then the education is bad. For people who managed to learn foreign language with better method, shocking bad. It should be ok to criticize foreign school system when it seems to unperform.

fenomas 9y ago

> my guess that English is taught some 2-3 hours per week Neat, but your guess is wildly wrong, and you should therefore discard your conclusions. Japanese mid/high-schoolers take about as many hours of English as they do math, science, or Japanese, and most study further hours at cram schools. The fact that very few Japanese people can speak conversation English despite an extremely rigorous education is what people are talking about here - not whether Japanese people "should" (in a normative sense) speak English, as you're trying to imply.