6 ms·

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I

by fiblye 9y ago

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm not here to dismiss the author's claims, but most of the weeaboo to Japan hater crowd I've found is people who lived very cushy lives with close family bonds, and when they put that aside in a somewhat "cold" culture, they take offense to everything. As a cold, unsocial person myself, Japan is incredibly welcoming in that I feel like I can finally be left alone without being isolated. I hated having people randomly start conversations with me in America. I disliked the "not my job" attitude of Americans. I very strongly disliked how confrontational and easily angered Americans were (especially how people complained about restaurant services and the minorest of things, while here, it's practically unseen). And then there's the people complaining about being a "foreigner forever." Honestly, how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone? I've seen it countless times. It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. And then he leads into "I can't believe they don't restrict speech and porn the way we do in my culture." In all honesty, fuck off. This is no better than someone being disgusted by western media showing bare female hair. The standards are subjective.

muninn_ 9y ago
Hmm, the "where are you from" isn't something I buy here. It's pretty obvious if an Asian person is "from" the U.S. and if their English has an accent I see no issues asking if/where they are from. It's a simple conversation starter. If somebody asks me where I'm from, I just tell them the city. It's not a big deal.
peteretep 9y ago
How long have you been there? The bellcurve of frustration he mentions is real.
naturalgradient 9y ago
I have to say I got a similar vibe from his writings, it's hard to pinpoint, but a weird sense of cultural entitlement: 'Why are they not as progressive as me and why don't they appreciate me criticising their culture?'
brucephillips 9y ago
> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries. English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    > How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? When did I say it was offensive?
    - jaredklewis 9y ago
      Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment. Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white. It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way. Anyway rant over.
fleitz 9y ago
I've never understood what's wrong with voting with your feet. Reminds me of how the people most dissatisfied with their jobs stay the longest
- ancarda 9y ago
  Sometimes you can't. More than anything else I wish I could just get on a plane and move to America but I can't because I'm not eligible for any visas. My company tried to relocate me and the immigration lawyer we hired basically said "can't happen, sorry". I did lots of research and I'm nowhere close to ticking enough boxes to do it. I'm currently trying to apply to University, with no idea how I'll afford it, to do a degree so I'll be more eligible for a visa and will tick more boxes in a few years. It's why "just leave" or "just vote with your wallet" is terrible advice.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - mejin 9y ago
    So you can't go to America. There are probably other decent countries that will accept you. You can start a business in Hungry for 5000 eur and get permanent residency. The question is, is your current place of residence better than any other place that will accept you? If so, where you are probably isn't that bad. If not, you can vote with your feet. Yes, it may be annoying that America won't accept you, but that doesn't mean you don't have any options.
    - ancarda 9y ago
      I appreciate your answer. Thinking about it, I realize this may not the best example to give to why "just leave" doesn't work. You might have an attachment to the culture and few, if any, other countries can tick the same boxes. For me, there's both push and pull factors so while I could go to another country (e.g. I have family in Australia), and it may help a bit, it wouldn't be what I'm looking for. There's aspects of US culture I struggle to find elsewhere.
atemerev 9y ago
It's small cultural differences. In the UK, the most dreaded crime you can do is cutting in the queue — while in other countries, while still frowned upon, this is not a big deal. Here in Switzerland, if you dare to get your trash out to someone else's container and get caught in the act, you are royally screwed — while people in other countries can't get it, trash is still getting out by waste management services, why so much drama? And once in the US, I accidentally suggested that the US might not be the greatest country in the world in some aspects. Well, I didn't repeat this mistake ever again.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable. (it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Well, it's fine if you don't think the U.S. Is the best, just don't make a point about it. It's not so much that Americans don't think America has faults, we just mostly love our country and take offense if you criticize it the wrong way. I love France but it certainly has its fair share of problems, for example, but I don't go around arguing with The French if they say they love France and it's the greatest place. It's just non-productive. Also in SF you'll get a bunch of self-hating people who haven't traveled much who think the U.S. sucks, just like in Alabama you'd get a bunch of irrationally pro-America people who haven't traveled much and don't see why the U.S. can suck with certain things.
    - madaxe_again 9y ago
      The difference is that I don't think any Frenchman would describe France as the greatest place on earth.
    - S4M 9y ago
bojo 9y ago
Been here 11 years myself and haven't experienced anything the author has stated either. My first year here was awkward (university exchange), but one can just write that off to culture shock. You can't help but think everyone is staring at you at first, and a lot of times they are - welcome to a very homogeneous Asian population foreigner, you are rare! I feel like the people that come here and end up hating it are exactly as you say, people with an absurd amount of weird cultural entitlement. It's like they don't understand that they are living in a completely different country from their own with completely different standards and norms. I have luckily not met such bitter folk, although I've tended to just stick to living a standard life here and not going out of my way to join any foreigner circles, which are apparently where these oddball haters tend to cluster. I remember when Google+ first came out and I flipped to the "people near you panel" on accident. Some lady, probably American, had posted a rant about how the hotel she was in asked her to leave the fitness area because she was covered in tattoos. She went on about self image, and how it's degrading to her being a unique individual, and on and on. I was like, holy shit, does this person even realize the stigma behind tattoos here? Does she understand that she is in a culture that is incredibly not individualistic and all about the group? I mean, how can one go and spend time in a foreign country with that level of ignorance? Sure, we all make mistakes, but I'd like to think most of us humbly accept that we did a cultural snafu and then move on.
trevyn 9y ago
>how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone? Caucasians in America get asked this all the time too.
- quicklime 9y ago
  The difference is that when Caucasians answer "California", the follow-up question is rarely "which European country are your ancestors from?"
  - scruple 9y ago
    Unfortunately, that's subjective. Try being a redhead. I've gotten it my entire life, even as a 36 year old. "No, but you're Irish, right?" It's the most minor transgression a person can make against me and it's so petty that I've never actually talked about it out loud before but it most certainly happens and more frequently than you'd imagine.
  - pacala 9y ago
    White with Eastern European accent. I get asked all the time, it's an innocent ice breaker.
- ljf 9y ago
  Maybe, but if you answer 'America', the next question isn't 'but where are you /really/ from?' as though the birthplace of your parents or their parents is a defining factor. And I say this a white British guy, but I've regularly witnessed the slightly different way that it is intonated at those that aren't white.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - mcphage 9y ago
    https://youtu.be/K6TLYwelOPk?t=52s https://youtu.be/K6TLYwelOPk?t=52s
- 9y ago
CalRobert 9y ago
Of course, the problem with "if you don't like it, leave" is that the people in the most dire straits are the least able to get a visa / work permit. Someone who lost their job, has no health insurance, and has a chronic health condition will find it pretty hard to leave if they wish to live in a reasonably developed nation (even in other places, it's not like visas are given out like candy.)

by fiblye 9y ago

muninn_ 9y ago

Hmm, the "where are you from" isn't something I buy here. It's pretty obvious if an Asian person is "from" the U.S. and if their English has an accent I see no issues asking if/where they are from. It's a simple conversation starter. If somebody asks me where I'm from, I just tell them the city. It's not a big deal.

peteretep 9y ago

How long have you been there? The bellcurve of frustration he mentions is real.

naturalgradient 9y ago

I have to say I got a similar vibe from his writings, it's hard to pinpoint, but a weird sense of cultural entitlement: 'Why are they not as progressive as me and why don't they appreciate me criticising their culture?'

brucephillips 9y ago

> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jaredklewis 9y ago
Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries. English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? When did I say it was offensive?
  - jaredklewis 9y ago
    Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment. Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white. It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way. Anyway rant over.

fleitz 9y ago

I've never understood what's wrong with voting with your feet. Reminds me of how the people most dissatisfied with their jobs stay the longest

ancarda 9y ago
Sometimes you can't. More than anything else I wish I could just get on a plane and move to America but I can't because I'm not eligible for any visas. My company tried to relocate me and the immigration lawyer we hired basically said "can't happen, sorry". I did lots of research and I'm nowhere close to ticking enough boxes to do it. I'm currently trying to apply to University, with no idea how I'll afford it, to do a degree so I'll be more eligible for a visa and will tick more boxes in a few years. It's why "just leave" or "just vote with your wallet" is terrible advice.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mejin 9y ago
  So you can't go to America. There are probably other decent countries that will accept you. You can start a business in Hungry for 5000 eur and get permanent residency. The question is, is your current place of residence better than any other place that will accept you? If so, where you are probably isn't that bad. If not, you can vote with your feet. Yes, it may be annoying that America won't accept you, but that doesn't mean you don't have any options.
  - ancarda 9y ago
    I appreciate your answer. Thinking about it, I realize this may not the best example to give to why "just leave" doesn't work. You might have an attachment to the culture and few, if any, other countries can tick the same boxes. For me, there's both push and pull factors so while I could go to another country (e.g. I have family in Australia), and it may help a bit, it wouldn't be what I'm looking for. There's aspects of US culture I struggle to find elsewhere.

atemerev 9y ago

It's small cultural differences. In the UK, the most dreaded crime you can do is cutting in the queue — while in other countries, while still frowned upon, this is not a big deal. Here in Switzerland, if you dare to get your trash out to someone else's container and get caught in the act, you are royally screwed — while people in other countries can't get it, trash is still getting out by waste management services, why so much drama? And once in the US, I accidentally suggested that the US might not be the greatest country in the world in some aspects. Well, I didn't repeat this mistake ever again.

on_and_off 9y ago
Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable. (it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  Well, it's fine if you don't think the U.S. Is the best, just don't make a point about it. It's not so much that Americans don't think America has faults, we just mostly love our country and take offense if you criticize it the wrong way. I love France but it certainly has its fair share of problems, for example, but I don't go around arguing with The French if they say they love France and it's the greatest place. It's just non-productive. Also in SF you'll get a bunch of self-hating people who haven't traveled much who think the U.S. sucks, just like in Alabama you'd get a bunch of irrationally pro-America people who haven't traveled much and don't see why the U.S. can suck with certain things.
  - madaxe_again 9y ago
    The difference is that I don't think any Frenchman would describe France as the greatest place on earth.
  - S4M 9y ago

bojo 9y ago

Been here 11 years myself and haven't experienced anything the author has stated either. My first year here was awkward (university exchange), but one can just write that off to culture shock. You can't help but think everyone is staring at you at first, and a lot of times they are - welcome to a very homogeneous Asian population foreigner, you are rare! I feel like the people that come here and end up hating it are exactly as you say, people with an absurd amount of weird cultural entitlement. It's like they don't understand that they are living in a completely different country from their own with completely different standards and norms. I have luckily not met such bitter folk, although I've tended to just stick to living a standard life here and not going out of my way to join any foreigner circles, which are apparently where these oddball haters tend to cluster. I remember when Google+ first came out and I flipped to the "people near you panel" on accident. Some lady, probably American, had posted a rant about how the hotel she was in asked her to leave the fitness area because she was covered in tattoos. She went on about self image, and how it's degrading to her being a unique individual, and on and on. I was like, holy shit, does this person even realize the stigma behind tattoos here? Does she understand that she is in a culture that is incredibly not individualistic and all about the group? I mean, how can one go and spend time in a foreign country with that level of ignorance? Sure, we all make mistakes, but I'd like to think most of us humbly accept that we did a cultural snafu and then move on.

trevyn 9y ago

>how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone? Caucasians in America get asked this all the time too.

quicklime 9y ago
The difference is that when Caucasians answer "California", the follow-up question is rarely "which European country are your ancestors from?"
- scruple 9y ago
  Unfortunately, that's subjective. Try being a redhead. I've gotten it my entire life, even as a 36 year old. "No, but you're Irish, right?" It's the most minor transgression a person can make against me and it's so petty that I've never actually talked about it out loud before but it most certainly happens and more frequently than you'd imagine.
- pacala 9y ago
  White with Eastern European accent. I get asked all the time, it's an innocent ice breaker.
ljf 9y ago
Maybe, but if you answer 'America', the next question isn't 'but where are you /really/ from?' as though the birthplace of your parents or their parents is a defining factor. And I say this a white British guy, but I've regularly witnessed the slightly different way that it is intonated at those that aren't white.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mcphage 9y ago
  https://youtu.be/K6TLYwelOPk?t=52s https://youtu.be/K6TLYwelOPk?t=52s
9y ago

CalRobert 9y ago

Of course, the problem with "if you don't like it, leave" is that the people in the most dire straits are the least able to get a visa / work permit. Someone who lost their job, has no health insurance, and has a chronic health condition will find it pretty hard to leave if they wish to live in a reasonably developed nation (even in other places, it's not like visas are given out like candy.)