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For a nice CGI movie on their high volume model: https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/ https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/

by Nanite 9y ago

JoshTriplett 9y ago
Very impressive video. Questions that page completely doesn't answer, though: How much does the system cost? ($5k to "reserve", but what's the final cost? Their "downloads" page, of all places, has a price sheet for the "studio" system, but not the "production" system.) What does the software workflow involve, from CAD software to printing? Also disappointing that, despite having an innovative piece of hardware, they still treat the software as heavily proprietary as well.
- Jedd 9y ago
  > How much does the system cost? Follow the reserve page through two more clicks. Studio system is $120,000 Production system is $360,000 The first is printer, debinder and furnace combined. So close to a total cost. The latter is printer only, so think of that figure as a secondary deposit.
- Const-me 9y ago
  > despite having an innovative piece of hardware, they still treat the software as heavily proprietary as well. My client created an innovative piece of hardware without investing in proprietary software. In a couple of months, he found cheaper clones offered on aliexpress and taobao. While the design was good, the product failed commercially. Then the company found me, I’ve created heavily proprietary software for the next version of their hardware. The product sells OK so far. In addition, creating software from scratch specifically for the given hardware delivers better overall value for the end users.
  - thisisit 9y ago
    If I may, what was the product and what is within the proprietary software which differs it from the clones? Because given China manufacturing scale it is given that every other thing will have a clone on aliexpress or taobao.
    - Const-me 9y ago
      A 3D printer. On the very high level, I’ve implemented a small subset of what Autodesk Netfabb premium does, the subset relevant to the hardware my client is offering. That Autodesk software costs $500/year, I guess that’s what differs our product from the clones: a clone would cost $500/year extra. Another thing, 3D printers are too different, they use many different technologies (FDM, SLA, DLP, SLS, etc.), and within each there’re different printing materials. These things are very relevant to e.g. slicing and support generation. Compared to the software like Netfabb which has to support all of them, our software only supports a single printer and a carefully selected set of printing materials. That’s why, hopefully, we were able to deliver better overall UX.
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    > In addition, creating software from scratch specifically for the given hardware delivers better overall value for the end users. That much makes perfect sense, and I would imagine that something as novel as a new metal 3D printer like this would want custom software to drive it as well. That doesn't prevent that custom software from being Open Source. And when you're talking about a product like this, in this price range, designed to support manufacturing with very tight tolerances, clones (and adoption of such) seem quite unlikely, even less so if they keep innovating with it. I'd rather see the "stickiness" provided by support, rather than software. Because inevitably, software written by a single vendor for their hardware always feels very particular to their workflow, not integrating with anything they didn't anticipate, and not allowing much flexibility. And CAD workflows are exactly the kind of area where everyone has their own set of customizations they want to be able to do. I'd like an Open Source library and an API, not an opaque kiosk.
    - Const-me 9y ago
      > I'd rather see the "stickiness" provided by support, rather than software. I’d rather see the product just works not requiring much support. Ideally, not requiring any support at all. This works OK for consumer electronics. I don’t see why industrial hardware can’t be designed the same way. > not integrating with anything they didn't anticipate Desktop software often solves the interop problem by supporting open file formats on input. For 3D printing, the de-facto one is STL. You can export this format from every CAD or 3D modeling software. > I'd like an Open Source library and an API, not an opaque kiosk. I prefer opaque kiosks. Opaque kiosks just do their job. Good ones do it well. Libraries and APIs require substantial amount of time to RTFM, integrate, debug integration, update integration with API updates, and so on. Also, not everyone is a programmer. I can use APIs and libraries when I need to, but most people just can’t. For an average Joe, these things are useless. Even harmful: creating good libraries and APIs has costs (documentation, examples, developers support); these resources might have been spent on useful features instead. The equation changes if the product attracts large user base and third-party developers start using these APIs to create value. But market for 3D printers is currently very small, i.e. this is unlikely to happen.
hacker_9 9y ago
That's the kind of HQ video that gets you that sort of funding.

For a nice CGI movie on their high volume model: https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/ https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/

by Nanite 9y ago

For a nice CGI movie on their high volume model: https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/ https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/

JoshTriplett 9y ago

Very impressive video. Questions that page completely doesn't answer, though: How much does the system cost? ($5k to "reserve", but what's the final cost? Their "downloads" page, of all places, has a price sheet for the "studio" system, but not the "production" system.) What does the software workflow involve, from CAD software to printing? Also disappointing that, despite having an innovative piece of hardware, they still treat the software as heavily proprietary as well.

Jedd 9y ago
> How much does the system cost? Follow the reserve page through two more clicks. Studio system is $120,000 Production system is $360,000 The first is printer, debinder and furnace combined. So close to a total cost. The latter is printer only, so think of that figure as a secondary deposit.
Const-me 9y ago
> despite having an innovative piece of hardware, they still treat the software as heavily proprietary as well. My client created an innovative piece of hardware without investing in proprietary software. In a couple of months, he found cheaper clones offered on aliexpress and taobao. While the design was good, the product failed commercially. Then the company found me, I’ve created heavily proprietary software for the next version of their hardware. The product sells OK so far. In addition, creating software from scratch specifically for the given hardware delivers better overall value for the end users.
- thisisit 9y ago
  If I may, what was the product and what is within the proprietary software which differs it from the clones? Because given China manufacturing scale it is given that every other thing will have a clone on aliexpress or taobao.
  - Const-me 9y ago
    A 3D printer. On the very high level, I’ve implemented a small subset of what Autodesk Netfabb premium does, the subset relevant to the hardware my client is offering. That Autodesk software costs $500/year, I guess that’s what differs our product from the clones: a clone would cost $500/year extra. Another thing, 3D printers are too different, they use many different technologies (FDM, SLA, DLP, SLS, etc.), and within each there’re different printing materials. These things are very relevant to e.g. slicing and support generation. Compared to the software like Netfabb which has to support all of them, our software only supports a single printer and a carefully selected set of printing materials. That’s why, hopefully, we were able to deliver better overall UX.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  > In addition, creating software from scratch specifically for the given hardware delivers better overall value for the end users. That much makes perfect sense, and I would imagine that something as novel as a new metal 3D printer like this would want custom software to drive it as well. That doesn't prevent that custom software from being Open Source. And when you're talking about a product like this, in this price range, designed to support manufacturing with very tight tolerances, clones (and adoption of such) seem quite unlikely, even less so if they keep innovating with it. I'd rather see the "stickiness" provided by support, rather than software. Because inevitably, software written by a single vendor for their hardware always feels very particular to their workflow, not integrating with anything they didn't anticipate, and not allowing much flexibility. And CAD workflows are exactly the kind of area where everyone has their own set of customizations they want to be able to do. I'd like an Open Source library and an API, not an opaque kiosk.
  - Const-me 9y ago
    > I'd rather see the "stickiness" provided by support, rather than software. I’d rather see the product just works not requiring much support. Ideally, not requiring any support at all. This works OK for consumer electronics. I don’t see why industrial hardware can’t be designed the same way. > not integrating with anything they didn't anticipate Desktop software often solves the interop problem by supporting open file formats on input. For 3D printing, the de-facto one is STL. You can export this format from every CAD or 3D modeling software. > I'd like an Open Source library and an API, not an opaque kiosk. I prefer opaque kiosks. Opaque kiosks just do their job. Good ones do it well. Libraries and APIs require substantial amount of time to RTFM, integrate, debug integration, update integration with API updates, and so on. Also, not everyone is a programmer. I can use APIs and libraries when I need to, but most people just can’t. For an average Joe, these things are useless. Even harmful: creating good libraries and APIs has costs (documentation, examples, developers support); these resources might have been spent on useful features instead. The equation changes if the product attracts large user base and third-party developers start using these APIs to create value. But market for 3D printers is currently very small, i.e. this is unlikely to happen.

hacker_9 9y ago

That's the kind of HQ video that gets you that sort of funding.