4 ms·

Why not focus on how to make stuff more efficiently locally, i.e., robotics? At least that could keep some manufacturing jobs local.

by pstuart 16y ago

CamperBob 16y ago
I think that's a valid point, but it will quickly devolve into an argument as to where the robots should be built. It still won't magically add any objective value to your product just to have the nuts and bolts tightened in your hometown.
- rbranson 16y ago
  You're confusing a capital investment (the robots) with cost-of-goods-sold (the widgets). Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost. In addition, if more manufacturing utilized these systems, scales of economy could be reached that would allow them to be more modular and commoditized.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost. For now. Also, keep in mind that everything I said about it being economically undesirable to employ human labor in production goes out the window when there are a billion workers available who have nowhere to go but up. There is no (natural) law that says that our robots will be any more economical than low-cost Chinese workers, even though they might be more economical than high-cost American workers.
    - rbranson 16y ago
      It's all "for now." Eventually we will exhaust the Earth's resources and possibly become enslaved by a race of artificial intelligence, but I'm not pretending to even think about solutions to those problems. It'd also be cheaper to have slaves, but we don't do that either. The ends do not justify the means. In order for capitalism to be effective at increasing standard-of-living across the board and allocate resources and capital efficiently, it must be tempered with rules that set limits on what avenues are pursued for profit.
rbranson 16y ago
This is exactly the problem. The cost of labor is a cop-out for short-term profit. Industries where the cost of shipping exceeds the savings in off-shore labor almost always find a way to automate labor and eliminate these costs.
kiba 16y ago
You mean 3D printers like Cupcake CNC from Makerbot Inc? It's already happening to some extent. People, more than ever before, are accumulating technical skills in their hobby time. At least some of them will be able to accumulate enough knowledge to build something cool, kits, startups, or something else. Eventually, you'll end up with a scavenging masses that scavenge junks thrown out by the Doctors, Lawyers, movie stars, and all sort of non-technical people of the world. It'll be an interesting world to see half of society built on high tech junks and sophisticated hacking.
Kadin 16y ago
I recently read an interesting book by the guy who runs Sherline, a U.S. manufacturer of small lathes and milling machines. The book is sort of a meandering opus covering basic machining techniques but also talking about the history of the company and how the business was built. A lot of it involves finding ways to use technology and advanced manufacturing methods to keep U.S. manufacture competitive with Asian imports. E.g., the Sherline mill is built on an aluminum extrusion filled with some sort of epoxy/concrete for rigidity. Most Asian lathes are built on castings which are machined to final specifications. The Sherline method is more difficult and requires more capital investment, but requires less labor. Basically in every case he mentions, the way you keep a U.S. based company competitive with Asia is by engineering away all the labor. What you do with 15 people in an Asian factory using 100-year-old methods you do with one guy and millions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art tooling in a U.S. one. And even then it might only buy you a few years of competitiveness, until that machinery can get moved over to Asia and installed, and then they beat you based on the cost of the one guy. Anyway, it's an interesting book if you're interested in that sort of thing but doesn't do much to restore my confidence that we're not engaged in a race to the bottom as a country. (Link to book: http://www.sherline.com/bookplug.htm http://www.sherline.com/bookplug.htm)

Why not focus on how to make stuff more efficiently locally, i.e., robotics? At least that could keep some manufacturing jobs local.

by pstuart 16y ago

Why not focus on how to make stuff more efficiently locally, i.e., robotics? At least that could keep some manufacturing jobs local.

CamperBob 16y ago

I think that's a valid point, but it will quickly devolve into an argument as to where the robots should be built. It still won't magically add any objective value to your product just to have the nuts and bolts tightened in your hometown.

rbranson 16y ago
You're confusing a capital investment (the robots) with cost-of-goods-sold (the widgets). Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost. In addition, if more manufacturing utilized these systems, scales of economy could be reached that would allow them to be more modular and commoditized.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost. For now. Also, keep in mind that everything I said about it being economically undesirable to employ human labor in production goes out the window when there are a billion workers available who have nowhere to go but up. There is no (natural) law that says that our robots will be any more economical than low-cost Chinese workers, even though they might be more economical than high-cost American workers.
  - rbranson 16y ago
    It's all "for now." Eventually we will exhaust the Earth's resources and possibly become enslaved by a race of artificial intelligence, but I'm not pretending to even think about solutions to those problems. It'd also be cheaper to have slaves, but we don't do that either. The ends do not justify the means. In order for capitalism to be effective at increasing standard-of-living across the board and allocate resources and capital efficiently, it must be tempered with rules that set limits on what avenues are pursued for profit.

rbranson 16y ago

This is exactly the problem. The cost of labor is a cop-out for short-term profit. Industries where the cost of shipping exceeds the savings in off-shore labor almost always find a way to automate labor and eliminate these costs.

kiba 16y ago

You mean 3D printers like Cupcake CNC from Makerbot Inc? It's already happening to some extent. People, more than ever before, are accumulating technical skills in their hobby time. At least some of them will be able to accumulate enough knowledge to build something cool, kits, startups, or something else. Eventually, you'll end up with a scavenging masses that scavenge junks thrown out by the Doctors, Lawyers, movie stars, and all sort of non-technical people of the world. It'll be an interesting world to see half of society built on high tech junks and sophisticated hacking.

Kadin 16y ago

I recently read an interesting book by the guy who runs Sherline, a U.S. manufacturer of small lathes and milling machines. The book is sort of a meandering opus covering basic machining techniques but also talking about the history of the company and how the business was built. A lot of it involves finding ways to use technology and advanced manufacturing methods to keep U.S. manufacture competitive with Asian imports. E.g., the Sherline mill is built on an aluminum extrusion filled with some sort of epoxy/concrete for rigidity. Most Asian lathes are built on castings which are machined to final specifications. The Sherline method is more difficult and requires more capital investment, but requires less labor. Basically in every case he mentions, the way you keep a U.S. based company competitive with Asia is by engineering away all the labor. What you do with 15 people in an Asian factory using 100-year-old methods you do with one guy and millions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art tooling in a U.S. one. And even then it might only buy you a few years of competitiveness, until that machinery can get moved over to Asia and installed, and then they beat you based on the cost of the one guy. Anyway, it's an interesting book if you're interested in that sort of thing but doesn't do much to restore my confidence that we're not engaged in a race to the bottom as a country. (Link to book: http://www.sherline.com/bookplug.htm http://www.sherline.com/bookplug.htm)