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I used to think this way, until one day many years later I realized that, (a) using a second language is very cognitively demanding and (b) if you've had to wor

I used to think this way, until one day many years later I realized that, (a) using a second language is very cognitively demanding and (b) if you've had to work hard to keep up with the English based instruction all day, it's even more demanding to get yourself to go use that language that's exhausting to use, after hours for socializing or group work. Not to mention that most second language learners of any kind (ex American learning German) will feel dumb/childlike in their inadequacies in their second language. So imo we'd do well to have empathy towards their situation.

cupcakestand 9y ago
Disagree. When I have been abroad the first time and then my English was subpar I still hung out with native English folks only to improve. I have never been with my local folks. I assume there must be another reason than being exhausted.
- Larrikin 9y ago
  From living abroad in a few different countries, this just isn't the case for most people unless a specific effort has to be sought out to find similar people. A large number of people will simply default to hanging out with people who speak the same language as them when they want to relax. Most people, but obviously not everyone, until they reach a certain level feel slightly uneasy in a situation where they are the only non-native. I've been in the situation many times and had a good time, but the anxiety is there. What I found the most interesting was that non-native but well spoken English speakers were also more comfortable with English speakers while they were learning a new language. When you aren't forced into the situation, say living in the countryside of a foreign country, or you aren't extremely studious its fairly natural to spend your down time with native speakers.
  - turbinerneiter 9y ago
    I'm a German native speaker at a University in Germany. In our CubeSat project, we all use English most of the time. A good third of the students are foreign, from India, Eastern Europe, Turkey and the rest of the world. We chose to speak a language _native to none of us_ to be _inclusive to all_. Everybody speaks English to such an extent that it becomes the lingua france of students in Germany. I think students coming to the US should be able to use English, too. Especially given the TOFL/whatever language test you have to pass to be admitted. Btw, a common story the exchange students tell is how stupid the other exchange students who only stay among themselves are.
    - honestoHeminway 9y ago
      Erasmus students are famous for only arriving and leaving in flocks. You cant talk to one alone, you got to communicate with the hive!
    - Oleg_Chen 9y ago
      Wow, that's cool. Can you please tell the name of the Uni ?
      - turbinerneiter 9y ago
        TU Munich
- cat199 9y ago
  Am anglo USian who has worked in university context and currently also attending place with high amount of foreign students... From observation / interactions it is all about motivation - You had a motivation to improve your English - Some, (Big note: not all!!!) of these students really don't give a crap about living in really 'experiencing' their host country, they are there because it gives them a convenient checkbox to tick on their 'international' credentials, enough of $host_country_language to manage with basic business transactions, and a way to network with other rich people from their own country, so when they go back home after completing their degree, they have a network in-country for their careers, etc.. The foreign degree it's a status symbol, and that only. No one is going to know how many locals you knew, how many host-country cultural events you experienced, etc, only that you attended and graduated. Some of these cultures are also internally elitist/narcissistic (e.g. our country is the best and other people are inferior), which while the same could be said of people not welcoming guest students, also can drive self-isolation; I am here only to look down my nose at you as some sort of specimen of curiosity while I obtain the credential which I will use at home in a nepotistic, insular way that you in your 'mere mortal', job-applying and needing-to-work-to-survive-way, will not. Being from the richest of the rich in countries with huge income inequality also facillitates this attitude.. Tell me that the kid in the article, some early 20's person, having the most expensive car in the entire city where his university is, doesn't create a hugely warped sense of self-importance.. why not 'capitalize' on that by being the coolest kid in your native circle than being the bizarre forigner that noone can relate to financially? Socioeconomically, it is like the richest people from Harvard/Yale/Cambridge/Oxford, etc. deciding to move to a small town.. many wouldn't mingle with the locals other than as a curio, and this factor is made more complex by the cultural barriers, esp. in cultures which are more introverted - clashing with US culture and also being biased towards self-isolation
sk0g 9y ago
Don't get me wrong, I know 4 languages, which means I keep forgetting words in ones I am not using, and it gets a bit awkward to speak in it after a while. But you know what? I speak in it anyway. How else will I improve my language skills? The other thing is, they're going to university in USA. Most of their studies will (likely) be in English, so by not picking up English, they are hurting not only their studies, but future career prospects. Unless, of course, they also have Chinese employees, that only employ Chinese people, which does happen where I live (Australia).
luca_ing 9y ago
While you make a good point, the thing is that in my personal observation only the Chinese students (they were probably the largest group, which probably plays a role TBH) kept to themselves. The other foreign students would merrily mingle with the locals and other foreign students. Just the Chinese would stay in their bubble.
Grangar 9y ago
Language can be learned. If you want to study somewhere but refuse to learn the local language you're delusional IMO. Studying in a foreign country is a luxury, not a right.
weberc2 9y ago
Using a second language is very cognitively demanding, and it takes a while to get over feeling stupid; that's all the more reason to climb that hill quickly, and integration (especially language) programs at a university can help. I studied abroad at an elite school in France with very little French language experience, and I would have loved to have had more social opportunities (the students were very heads-down and the class structure didn't encourage socialization as well as U.S. universities) for exactly the reasons you cited, not to mention better support for learning the language (the school had a conversation partner program, but not much else).
jansho 9y ago
This was my observation too. Actually you see this ethnic-based clustering with others too, but it's just that the Chinese stick out more cos yes, there's usually more of them in STEM subjects. They're also not afraid to openly converse in their own language, even in class projects! Sometimes I think that locals can do more to interact with them. Their presence is also our opportunity to learn from them. There's a lot of prejudice (Chinese people cheat for example) which surprise surprise, if you mingle more, you'll realise it's as stupid as saying white people like to party all the time. Ultimately we group together to feel safer. If you approach one with a friendly face, you're likely to be received with appreciation and intrigue. If not...well what exactly have you got to lose? Don't let bad experience shape your prejudice though.
geon 9y ago
Does that mean english is now one of my first languages?
Balgair 9y ago
I mean, a passing TOFEL score is required, I think. Expecting them all to speak English conversationally is mute with a passing score.

cupcakestand 9y ago

Disagree. When I have been abroad the first time and then my English was subpar I still hung out with native English folks only to improve. I have never been with my local folks. I assume there must be another reason than being exhausted.

Larrikin 9y ago
From living abroad in a few different countries, this just isn't the case for most people unless a specific effort has to be sought out to find similar people. A large number of people will simply default to hanging out with people who speak the same language as them when they want to relax. Most people, but obviously not everyone, until they reach a certain level feel slightly uneasy in a situation where they are the only non-native. I've been in the situation many times and had a good time, but the anxiety is there. What I found the most interesting was that non-native but well spoken English speakers were also more comfortable with English speakers while they were learning a new language. When you aren't forced into the situation, say living in the countryside of a foreign country, or you aren't extremely studious its fairly natural to spend your down time with native speakers.
- turbinerneiter 9y ago
  I'm a German native speaker at a University in Germany. In our CubeSat project, we all use English most of the time. A good third of the students are foreign, from India, Eastern Europe, Turkey and the rest of the world. We chose to speak a language _native to none of us_ to be _inclusive to all_. Everybody speaks English to such an extent that it becomes the lingua france of students in Germany. I think students coming to the US should be able to use English, too. Especially given the TOFL/whatever language test you have to pass to be admitted. Btw, a common story the exchange students tell is how stupid the other exchange students who only stay among themselves are.
  - honestoHeminway 9y ago
    Erasmus students are famous for only arriving and leaving in flocks. You cant talk to one alone, you got to communicate with the hive!
  - Oleg_Chen 9y ago
    Wow, that's cool. Can you please tell the name of the Uni ?
    - turbinerneiter 9y ago
      TU Munich
cat199 9y ago
Am anglo USian who has worked in university context and currently also attending place with high amount of foreign students... From observation / interactions it is all about motivation - You had a motivation to improve your English - Some, (Big note: not all!!!) of these students really don't give a crap about living in really 'experiencing' their host country, they are there because it gives them a convenient checkbox to tick on their 'international' credentials, enough of $host_country_language to manage with basic business transactions, and a way to network with other rich people from their own country, so when they go back home after completing their degree, they have a network in-country for their careers, etc.. The foreign degree it's a status symbol, and that only. No one is going to know how many locals you knew, how many host-country cultural events you experienced, etc, only that you attended and graduated. Some of these cultures are also internally elitist/narcissistic (e.g. our country is the best and other people are inferior), which while the same could be said of people not welcoming guest students, also can drive self-isolation; I am here only to look down my nose at you as some sort of specimen of curiosity while I obtain the credential which I will use at home in a nepotistic, insular way that you in your 'mere mortal', job-applying and needing-to-work-to-survive-way, will not. Being from the richest of the rich in countries with huge income inequality also facillitates this attitude.. Tell me that the kid in the article, some early 20's person, having the most expensive car in the entire city where his university is, doesn't create a hugely warped sense of self-importance.. why not 'capitalize' on that by being the coolest kid in your native circle than being the bizarre forigner that noone can relate to financially? Socioeconomically, it is like the richest people from Harvard/Yale/Cambridge/Oxford, etc. deciding to move to a small town.. many wouldn't mingle with the locals other than as a curio, and this factor is made more complex by the cultural barriers, esp. in cultures which are more introverted - clashing with US culture and also being biased towards self-isolation

sk0g 9y ago

Don't get me wrong, I know 4 languages, which means I keep forgetting words in ones I am not using, and it gets a bit awkward to speak in it after a while. But you know what? I speak in it anyway. How else will I improve my language skills? The other thing is, they're going to university in USA. Most of their studies will (likely) be in English, so by not picking up English, they are hurting not only their studies, but future career prospects. Unless, of course, they also have Chinese employees, that only employ Chinese people, which does happen where I live (Australia).

luca_ing 9y ago

While you make a good point, the thing is that in my personal observation only the Chinese students (they were probably the largest group, which probably plays a role TBH) kept to themselves. The other foreign students would merrily mingle with the locals and other foreign students. Just the Chinese would stay in their bubble.

Grangar 9y ago

Language can be learned. If you want to study somewhere but refuse to learn the local language you're delusional IMO. Studying in a foreign country is a luxury, not a right.

weberc2 9y ago

Using a second language is very cognitively demanding, and it takes a while to get over feeling stupid; that's all the more reason to climb that hill quickly, and integration (especially language) programs at a university can help. I studied abroad at an elite school in France with very little French language experience, and I would have loved to have had more social opportunities (the students were very heads-down and the class structure didn't encourage socialization as well as U.S. universities) for exactly the reasons you cited, not to mention better support for learning the language (the school had a conversation partner program, but not much else).

jansho 9y ago

This was my observation too. Actually you see this ethnic-based clustering with others too, but it's just that the Chinese stick out more cos yes, there's usually more of them in STEM subjects. They're also not afraid to openly converse in their own language, even in class projects! Sometimes I think that locals can do more to interact with them. Their presence is also our opportunity to learn from them. There's a lot of prejudice (Chinese people cheat for example) which surprise surprise, if you mingle more, you'll realise it's as stupid as saying white people like to party all the time. Ultimately we group together to feel safer. If you approach one with a friendly face, you're likely to be received with appreciation and intrigue. If not...well what exactly have you got to lose? Don't let bad experience shape your prejudice though.

geon 9y ago

Does that mean english is now one of my first languages?

Balgair 9y ago

I mean, a passing TOFEL score is required, I think. Expecting them all to speak English conversationally is mute with a passing score.