7 ms·

This problem is even worse in the UC system. All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students. They are extremely insular and hang out/st

This problem is even worse in the UC system. All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students. They are extremely insular and hang out/study exclusively with other Chinese. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean effectively cutting in half the fellow students you can turn to for support in a class. They should really force the point of integration, rather than using these kids as paychecks to the detriment of local students.

chickenfries 9y ago
> All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students. I'm going to need citation a citation for >50% Chinese
- pinaceae 9y ago
  the previous user, here on HN. you're welcome. prove him wrong, using data if you disagree.
  - tanilama 9y ago
    50% Asian possible, 50% Chinese? I doubt. The OP didn't use data either, it is just what-I-saw
    - chickenfries 9y ago
      Exactly, this is like when I thought a start up I was at half women until I counted and realized it was more like 35%. I can't believe I'm being downvoted on HN for suggesting that this particulate anecdote isn't exactly reliable.
- aphextron 9y ago
  The data is my anecdotal experience as an undergrad currently taking lower division engineering requirements. This applies equally to the California community college system.
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    How do you know they're international students and not Californians? All of them? How do you know they're Chinese, did you ask, or are you going by your best guess?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- chibg10 9y ago
  I was in the graduate stats program at Mizzou. It's definitely majority Chinese. I'd conservatively say 60%.
- kristianov 9y ago
  My anecdotal experience (UCSD) is that at least 50% of the ones who attend lectures are East Asian.
  - sqrt 9y ago
    But plenty of us are US-born! A glance often isn't enough to distinguish between international and domestic students.
    - chickenfries 9y ago
      Exactly my point. You really have no idea unless you ask someone.
logicchains 9y ago
If those students weren't there it doesn't mean they'd automatically be replaced by local students, there might just be fewer students in class overall. Look on the bright side: it's an opportunity to learn and practice what's possibly the most useful language apart from English, and the language of the future as China's industrialisation continues (due to its far larger population, even with e.g. only half the per-capita GDP of America it will still be a much larger economy). Baidu is already leading Google in computer vision. Quite a few of my friends in university were Chinese, and on average they seemed more interested in study and less interested in just boozing their way through university than the average western classmate.
- escherize 9y ago
  Logicchains, you are aware of how many students are turned down by UC schools yes? It might just be that those folks they turned down would fill those seats.
  - fellellor 9y ago
    They're probably turned down because they aren't good enough for scholarships and they don't have the money to manage without any aid.
  - logicchains 9y ago
    As an Australian I'm not aware of this, I was speaking in terms of American universities as a whole. Fewer Chinese enrollments would mean fewer enrollments overall, and less money flowing into the university system (which assuming it isn't all squandered on admin, would reduce research output).
    - ericd 9y ago
      It wouldn't mean that, the good US universities are supply-constrained.
  - msie 9y ago
    There are only so many seats available for local students made available by government funding.
narrator 9y ago
I wonder if strong international demand for American University degrees is why tuition costs keep rising.
- 7852b1805e 9y ago
  I am not sure about the accurate data, but I feel most universities here in the United States are non-profit organizations (i.e. created not with the goal of distributing excess revenue to members or leaders). If it is the demand drives up the tuition cost for those non-profit universities, then why not build some for-profit universities here to cater the additional demand?(such as Trump University, or University of Phoenix)
  - tnecniv 9y ago
    Just because they are non-profit doesn't mean they don't love your money. Just look at the endowment of any major school.
    - 7852b1805e 9y ago
      just some side question...if a non-profit organization "loves your money" (which I would interpret as motivated by your money [at least partially]), would that make it not so much a non-profit organization? If that is the case, would this kind of "love your money" behavior exhibited by a non-profit organization make that organization less trustworthy to you? Or perhaps we could further refine that "love for money" as "beyond necessity" and "within necessity"...but the problem is very difficult for an external observer to tell where the boundary lies for a particular entity -- although that boundary does exist in many cases...
      - CamTin 9y ago
        The obvious answer is that "non-profit" doesn't have a meaningful definition outside of the tax code. "Profit" is an accounting trick, for one, so any "excess money" (the commonly-understood meaning of "profit") can easily be funneled into grants, administrator salaries, larger workforces to satisfy administrators' urge to play primate dominance games, etc. Another one is that "non-profits" (in the tax-code sense) are actually allowed to make a profit (both in the accountants' sense of the word, and the ordinary sense). Hospital systems, for example, often make huge profits, while hiding behind a non-profit status that they've inherited from the bunch of actually-charitable nuns who started running the hospital 150 years ago.
hkmurakami 9y ago
I used to think this way, until one day many years later I realized that, (a) using a second language is very cognitively demanding and (b) if you've had to work hard to keep up with the English based instruction all day, it's even more demanding to get yourself to go use that language that's exhausting to use, after hours for socializing or group work. Not to mention that most second language learners of any kind (ex American learning German) will feel dumb/childlike in their inadequacies in their second language. So imo we'd do well to have empathy towards their situation.
- cupcakestand 9y ago
  Disagree. When I have been abroad the first time and then my English was subpar I still hung out with native English folks only to improve. I have never been with my local folks. I assume there must be another reason than being exhausted.
  - Larrikin 9y ago
    From living abroad in a few different countries, this just isn't the case for most people unless a specific effort has to be sought out to find similar people. A large number of people will simply default to hanging out with people who speak the same language as them when they want to relax. Most people, but obviously not everyone, until they reach a certain level feel slightly uneasy in a situation where they are the only non-native. I've been in the situation many times and had a good time, but the anxiety is there. What I found the most interesting was that non-native but well spoken English speakers were also more comfortable with English speakers while they were learning a new language. When you aren't forced into the situation, say living in the countryside of a foreign country, or you aren't extremely studious its fairly natural to spend your down time with native speakers.
    - turbinerneiter 9y ago
      I'm a German native speaker at a University in Germany. In our CubeSat project, we all use English most of the time. A good third of the students are foreign, from India, Eastern Europe, Turkey and the rest of the world. We chose to speak a language _native to none of us_ to be _inclusive to all_. Everybody speaks English to such an extent that it becomes the lingua france of students in Germany. I think students coming to the US should be able to use English, too. Especially given the TOFL/whatever language test you have to pass to be admitted. Btw, a common story the exchange students tell is how stupid the other exchange students who only stay among themselves are.
averagewall 9y ago
If they're the majority, is it fair to say "they" are insular? It likely goes both ways with the locals not thinking the Chinese students are cool or fun enough, or not bothering to make friends with them because it's just easier to keep doing what they've been doing all their lives.
tanilama 9y ago
It is logical. When I was in China, my university has international students as well, they also exclusively hang out with only each other. Actually, it is Westerners hang out with Westerners(US/Germany/France, etc you name it), Koreans hang out with Koreans, Japanese hang out with Japanese, and Africans hang out with each other. Is this really that abnormal? That when exposed to a foreign environment and probably not very good at the language, people just turn to other people that is facing/faced the similar situation before for ... help and support? When I was a student, I wanted to hang out with the locals' as well, but the cultural difference is pretty obvious: I don't really like partying, couldn't drink too much, grown up with very different music, and often time I didn't get other people's jokes that I felt like an idiot. And since my family paid premium to send me here, I spent most of the time in library studying, by myself or with other Chinese students, just like I did back in college, leaving little time for culture immersion. So maybe the problem should be, the school should call more people to participate in STEM classes? Or force a diverse study group, that worked well for some of my classes, and I have a good time collaborating with my teammates.
epmaybe 9y ago
Maybe I'm an outlier, but there were quite a few chinese international students in my computer science courses (not at UC) that were quite willing, even with their broken English, to try and interact and hang out with english speaking, non chinese individuals like myself.
Blackthorn 9y ago
White people in university also tend to hang out / study exclusively with other white people. Why is it only the Chinese students who get a bad rap for it? > It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean effectively cutting in half the fellow students you can turn to for support in a class. They don't owe you anything.
haburka 9y ago
I integrated with some Chinese students and it was really hard! The language barrier means that conversation is really slow and you don't get to see their personality as much. Additionally, when I brought them to events with all English students, they had to spend all their time with me because they struggled to make friends. I think that you should have more empathy for them.

chickenfries 9y ago

> All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students. I'm going to need citation a citation for >50% Chinese

pinaceae 9y ago
the previous user, here on HN. you're welcome. prove him wrong, using data if you disagree.
- tanilama 9y ago
  50% Asian possible, 50% Chinese? I doubt. The OP didn't use data either, it is just what-I-saw
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    Exactly, this is like when I thought a start up I was at half women until I counted and realized it was more like 35%. I can't believe I'm being downvoted on HN for suggesting that this particulate anecdote isn't exactly reliable.
aphextron 9y ago
The data is my anecdotal experience as an undergrad currently taking lower division engineering requirements. This applies equally to the California community college system.
- chickenfries 9y ago
  How do you know they're international students and not Californians? All of them? How do you know they're Chinese, did you ask, or are you going by your best guess?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
chibg10 9y ago
I was in the graduate stats program at Mizzou. It's definitely majority Chinese. I'd conservatively say 60%.
kristianov 9y ago
My anecdotal experience (UCSD) is that at least 50% of the ones who attend lectures are East Asian.
- sqrt 9y ago
  But plenty of us are US-born! A glance often isn't enough to distinguish between international and domestic students.
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    Exactly my point. You really have no idea unless you ask someone.

logicchains 9y ago

If those students weren't there it doesn't mean they'd automatically be replaced by local students, there might just be fewer students in class overall. Look on the bright side: it's an opportunity to learn and practice what's possibly the most useful language apart from English, and the language of the future as China's industrialisation continues (due to its far larger population, even with e.g. only half the per-capita GDP of America it will still be a much larger economy). Baidu is already leading Google in computer vision. Quite a few of my friends in university were Chinese, and on average they seemed more interested in study and less interested in just boozing their way through university than the average western classmate.

escherize 9y ago
Logicchains, you are aware of how many students are turned down by UC schools yes? It might just be that those folks they turned down would fill those seats.
- fellellor 9y ago
  They're probably turned down because they aren't good enough for scholarships and they don't have the money to manage without any aid.
- logicchains 9y ago
  As an Australian I'm not aware of this, I was speaking in terms of American universities as a whole. Fewer Chinese enrollments would mean fewer enrollments overall, and less money flowing into the university system (which assuming it isn't all squandered on admin, would reduce research output).
  - ericd 9y ago
    It wouldn't mean that, the good US universities are supply-constrained.
- msie 9y ago
  There are only so many seats available for local students made available by government funding.

narrator 9y ago

I wonder if strong international demand for American University degrees is why tuition costs keep rising.

7852b1805e 9y ago
I am not sure about the accurate data, but I feel most universities here in the United States are non-profit organizations (i.e. created not with the goal of distributing excess revenue to members or leaders). If it is the demand drives up the tuition cost for those non-profit universities, then why not build some for-profit universities here to cater the additional demand?(such as Trump University, or University of Phoenix)
- tnecniv 9y ago
  Just because they are non-profit doesn't mean they don't love your money. Just look at the endowment of any major school.
  - 7852b1805e 9y ago
    just some side question...if a non-profit organization "loves your money" (which I would interpret as motivated by your money [at least partially]), would that make it not so much a non-profit organization? If that is the case, would this kind of "love your money" behavior exhibited by a non-profit organization make that organization less trustworthy to you? Or perhaps we could further refine that "love for money" as "beyond necessity" and "within necessity"...but the problem is very difficult for an external observer to tell where the boundary lies for a particular entity -- although that boundary does exist in many cases...
    - CamTin 9y ago
      The obvious answer is that "non-profit" doesn't have a meaningful definition outside of the tax code. "Profit" is an accounting trick, for one, so any "excess money" (the commonly-understood meaning of "profit") can easily be funneled into grants, administrator salaries, larger workforces to satisfy administrators' urge to play primate dominance games, etc. Another one is that "non-profits" (in the tax-code sense) are actually allowed to make a profit (both in the accountants' sense of the word, and the ordinary sense). Hospital systems, for example, often make huge profits, while hiding behind a non-profit status that they've inherited from the bunch of actually-charitable nuns who started running the hospital 150 years ago.

hkmurakami 9y ago

I used to think this way, until one day many years later I realized that, (a) using a second language is very cognitively demanding and (b) if you've had to work hard to keep up with the English based instruction all day, it's even more demanding to get yourself to go use that language that's exhausting to use, after hours for socializing or group work. Not to mention that most second language learners of any kind (ex American learning German) will feel dumb/childlike in their inadequacies in their second language. So imo we'd do well to have empathy towards their situation.

cupcakestand 9y ago
Disagree. When I have been abroad the first time and then my English was subpar I still hung out with native English folks only to improve. I have never been with my local folks. I assume there must be another reason than being exhausted.
- Larrikin 9y ago
  From living abroad in a few different countries, this just isn't the case for most people unless a specific effort has to be sought out to find similar people. A large number of people will simply default to hanging out with people who speak the same language as them when they want to relax. Most people, but obviously not everyone, until they reach a certain level feel slightly uneasy in a situation where they are the only non-native. I've been in the situation many times and had a good time, but the anxiety is there. What I found the most interesting was that non-native but well spoken English speakers were also more comfortable with English speakers while they were learning a new language. When you aren't forced into the situation, say living in the countryside of a foreign country, or you aren't extremely studious its fairly natural to spend your down time with native speakers.
  - turbinerneiter 9y ago
    I'm a German native speaker at a University in Germany. In our CubeSat project, we all use English most of the time. A good third of the students are foreign, from India, Eastern Europe, Turkey and the rest of the world. We chose to speak a language _native to none of us_ to be _inclusive to all_. Everybody speaks English to such an extent that it becomes the lingua france of students in Germany. I think students coming to the US should be able to use English, too. Especially given the TOFL/whatever language test you have to pass to be admitted. Btw, a common story the exchange students tell is how stupid the other exchange students who only stay among themselves are.

averagewall 9y ago

If they're the majority, is it fair to say "they" are insular? It likely goes both ways with the locals not thinking the Chinese students are cool or fun enough, or not bothering to make friends with them because it's just easier to keep doing what they've been doing all their lives.

tanilama 9y ago

It is logical. When I was in China, my university has international students as well, they also exclusively hang out with only each other. Actually, it is Westerners hang out with Westerners(US/Germany/France, etc you name it), Koreans hang out with Koreans, Japanese hang out with Japanese, and Africans hang out with each other. Is this really that abnormal? That when exposed to a foreign environment and probably not very good at the language, people just turn to other people that is facing/faced the similar situation before for ... help and support? When I was a student, I wanted to hang out with the locals' as well, but the cultural difference is pretty obvious: I don't really like partying, couldn't drink too much, grown up with very different music, and often time I didn't get other people's jokes that I felt like an idiot. And since my family paid premium to send me here, I spent most of the time in library studying, by myself or with other Chinese students, just like I did back in college, leaving little time for culture immersion. So maybe the problem should be, the school should call more people to participate in STEM classes? Or force a diverse study group, that worked well for some of my classes, and I have a good time collaborating with my teammates.

epmaybe 9y ago

Maybe I'm an outlier, but there were quite a few chinese international students in my computer science courses (not at UC) that were quite willing, even with their broken English, to try and interact and hang out with english speaking, non chinese individuals like myself.

Blackthorn 9y ago

White people in university also tend to hang out / study exclusively with other white people. Why is it only the Chinese students who get a bad rap for it? > It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean effectively cutting in half the fellow students you can turn to for support in a class. They don't owe you anything.

haburka 9y ago

I integrated with some Chinese students and it was really hard! The language barrier means that conversation is really slow and you don't get to see their personality as much. Additionally, when I brought them to events with all English students, they had to spend all their time with me because they struggled to make friends. I think that you should have more empathy for them.