5 ms·

Am I reading this right? A single binary, less than 1mb in size, that handles GC and cross compiles? Color me impressed. Looking at platforms, does it not do

by axaxs 9y ago

Am I reading this right? A single binary, less than 1mb in size, that handles GC and cross compiles? Color me impressed. Looking at platforms, does it not do 64 bit?

ncx 9y ago
> Looking at platforms, does it not do 64 bit? Right now, it only compiles to 32 bit binaries (which can run on both 32 and 64 bit OS). 64 bit support will come after the compiler is bootstrapped. > and cross compiles Yup, easy cross compilation. You do not need different cross compilers for different platforms a la llvm and gcc, a single 1 mb binary can produce binaries for all supported platforms.
- m-j-fox 9y ago
  I looked over the code to guage how big this 32-bit problem is. It's going to be a lot of work. 32-bit is hardcoded everywhere. Compiler, linker, libc calls. So, on one hand, there's massive cross-platform support. On the other hand, those platforms are all obsolete, or about to be. Even the mobile and embedded ones have all gone 64-bit. Maybe backwards compatibility will be maintained for a few years. But it ruins the embed-red-in-C story already.
  - ncx 9y ago
    The current compiler was written with the aim of quick development till 1.0 is reached (because in the initial development phase, there are obviously many other important things to focus on). So, yeah the toolchain has some issues, eg. there are very few (if any) optimizations. Also, only 32 bit is supported. There are AFAIK no plans to add 64 bit support before bootstrapping phase because the current toolchain architecture isn't that great and will be heavily improved during 1.x cycle. A bit more details here - https://gitter.im/red/red?at=56ac45a1586242210ae0704d https://gitter.im/red/red?at=56ac45a1586242210ae0704d and https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Question-about-contributing-to-core-parts-of-Red's-toolchain https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Question-about-contributing-...
  - rkangel 9y ago
    64 bit processors (and their OS platforms) will retain backwards compatibility to 32 bit apps for the forseeable future. There are too many situations where 32 bit apps are better for that not to be the case (smaller binary size and better cache performance).
    - fcanas 9y ago
      iOS 11 does not. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06282017b https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06282017b
  - zild3d 9y ago
    For mobile and desktop, sure 32 bit is fading, but embedded 32 bit is so far from obsolete. I don't know how you can even claim that when even 8 bit platforms still have a huge market share. ARM cortex-M (32 bit) has only recently been able to chip away at 8 bit platforms and gain major use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_microcontrollers#References https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_microcontroller... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Overview
    - m-j-fox 9y ago
      Yes, but the embedded platforms that are interesting for high-level scripting are mostly phones. Worse than desktops, they won't bother with 32-bit compatibility layers. Using the other meaning of embedded (I embedded a Lua script in my C application), compatibility libraries don't help. It simply won't link.
throwaway7645 9y ago
You're correct. It's crazy what you can do when you don't bundle 8 zillion MB of C in your install. Rebol is the original parent language, but it doesn't have a system language to compile to, just a < 5 MB interpreter that you could do a lot with. Neat little languages. The creator wanted to take Rebol and write a version that would be the first true "Full Stack" language covering everything from desktop GUI to building OS, to highly advanced parsing, to robotics. If you google it, there is a nice interview with Red's primary author Nenad Rackocevic (forgive spelling) that is from ~2015, but still should be accurate. Interview: https://notamonadtutorial.com/interview-with-nenad-rakocevic-about-red-a-rebol-inspired-programming-language-681133e3fd1c https://notamonadtutorial.com/interview-with-nenad-rakocevic...
- ASipos 9y ago
  Offtopic nitpick: I never understood stuff like writing "forgive spelling" or "sp?" when the correct spelling is a Google away.
  - rendall 9y ago
    I'd rather have misspelled information than not have it. Some folks might be on a mobile device with an interface that makes it difficult to switch to another window. Or perhaps they are offline when they're writing it. Or perhaps they have mobility / accessibility issues that makes switching a challenge. Those are off the top of my head. To my mind, worrying about someone's spelling when I can understand them perfectly is one of those "life's too short" issues, speeking personaly.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >Some folks might be on a mobile device with an interface that makes it difficult to switch to another window. Or perhaps they are offline when they're writing it. Or perhaps they have mobility / accessibility issues that makes switching a challenge. Those are off the top of my head. There's also momentum. They want to go write a quick comment and type their thoughts as they come -- not stop and Google things.
christophilus 9y ago
Yeah. Red continually impresses me. Its documentation is what has kept me from really diving in. But over all, it's an impressive language.
beagle3 9y ago
Yes. It also handles GUI for Mac and Windows. The old 32-bit K2 (K language) had a superfast ACID DB, GUI, GC, no dependencies (but also no compilter) and was 250K, so 4 independent platforms would still fit in under 1MB; Arthur is now working on KPARC, which has no compiler but does boot on metal and includes GUI, editor, db, filesystem, network, and a lot more, e.g. this http://kparc.com/edit.k http://kparc.com/edit.k is the implementation of native nano-style GUI editor. ; Last I heard, it was still <500KB.
- aethertron 9y ago
  kOS sounds like a dream. I'd love more info on it. Related HN link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8475809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8475809
  - beagle3 9y ago
    Not very easy to come by, but if you haven't seen it yet, here's a presentation by geocar from 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrOg19gzP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrOg19gzP4
anta40 9y ago
>> A single binary, less than 1mb in size, that handles GC and cross compiles? Yeah, me too. I tried reading the Red source code, hmm still couldn't figure it out. Could someone explain how Red achieve this? Compared to GCC or FPC, Red is obviously very very very tiny :)

by axaxs 9y ago

Am I reading this right? A single binary, less than 1mb in size, that handles GC and cross compiles? Color me impressed. Looking at platforms, does it not do 64 bit?

ncx 9y ago

> Looking at platforms, does it not do 64 bit? Right now, it only compiles to 32 bit binaries (which can run on both 32 and 64 bit OS). 64 bit support will come after the compiler is bootstrapped. > and cross compiles Yup, easy cross compilation. You do not need different cross compilers for different platforms a la llvm and gcc, a single 1 mb binary can produce binaries for all supported platforms.

m-j-fox 9y ago
I looked over the code to guage how big this 32-bit problem is. It's going to be a lot of work. 32-bit is hardcoded everywhere. Compiler, linker, libc calls. So, on one hand, there's massive cross-platform support. On the other hand, those platforms are all obsolete, or about to be. Even the mobile and embedded ones have all gone 64-bit. Maybe backwards compatibility will be maintained for a few years. But it ruins the embed-red-in-C story already.
- ncx 9y ago
  The current compiler was written with the aim of quick development till 1.0 is reached (because in the initial development phase, there are obviously many other important things to focus on). So, yeah the toolchain has some issues, eg. there are very few (if any) optimizations. Also, only 32 bit is supported. There are AFAIK no plans to add 64 bit support before bootstrapping phase because the current toolchain architecture isn't that great and will be heavily improved during 1.x cycle. A bit more details here - https://gitter.im/red/red?at=56ac45a1586242210ae0704d https://gitter.im/red/red?at=56ac45a1586242210ae0704d and https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Question-about-contributing-to-core-parts-of-Red's-toolchain https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Question-about-contributing-...
- rkangel 9y ago
  64 bit processors (and their OS platforms) will retain backwards compatibility to 32 bit apps for the forseeable future. There are too many situations where 32 bit apps are better for that not to be the case (smaller binary size and better cache performance).
  - fcanas 9y ago
    iOS 11 does not. https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06282017b https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=06282017b
- zild3d 9y ago
  For mobile and desktop, sure 32 bit is fading, but embedded 32 bit is so far from obsolete. I don't know how you can even claim that when even 8 bit platforms still have a huge market share. ARM cortex-M (32 bit) has only recently been able to chip away at 8 bit platforms and gain major use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_microcontrollers#References https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_microcontroller... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Overview
  - m-j-fox 9y ago
    Yes, but the embedded platforms that are interesting for high-level scripting are mostly phones. Worse than desktops, they won't bother with 32-bit compatibility layers. Using the other meaning of embedded (I embedded a Lua script in my C application), compatibility libraries don't help. It simply won't link.

throwaway7645 9y ago

You're correct. It's crazy what you can do when you don't bundle 8 zillion MB of C in your install. Rebol is the original parent language, but it doesn't have a system language to compile to, just a < 5 MB interpreter that you could do a lot with. Neat little languages. The creator wanted to take Rebol and write a version that would be the first true "Full Stack" language covering everything from desktop GUI to building OS, to highly advanced parsing, to robotics. If you google it, there is a nice interview with Red's primary author Nenad Rackocevic (forgive spelling) that is from ~2015, but still should be accurate. Interview: https://notamonadtutorial.com/interview-with-nenad-rakocevic-about-red-a-rebol-inspired-programming-language-681133e3fd1c https://notamonadtutorial.com/interview-with-nenad-rakocevic...

ASipos 9y ago
Offtopic nitpick: I never understood stuff like writing "forgive spelling" or "sp?" when the correct spelling is a Google away.
- rendall 9y ago
  I'd rather have misspelled information than not have it. Some folks might be on a mobile device with an interface that makes it difficult to switch to another window. Or perhaps they are offline when they're writing it. Or perhaps they have mobility / accessibility issues that makes switching a challenge. Those are off the top of my head. To my mind, worrying about someone's spelling when I can understand them perfectly is one of those "life's too short" issues, speeking personaly.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Some folks might be on a mobile device with an interface that makes it difficult to switch to another window. Or perhaps they are offline when they're writing it. Or perhaps they have mobility / accessibility issues that makes switching a challenge. Those are off the top of my head. There's also momentum. They want to go write a quick comment and type their thoughts as they come -- not stop and Google things.

christophilus 9y ago

Yeah. Red continually impresses me. Its documentation is what has kept me from really diving in. But over all, it's an impressive language.

beagle3 9y ago

Yes. It also handles GUI for Mac and Windows. The old 32-bit K2 (K language) had a superfast ACID DB, GUI, GC, no dependencies (but also no compilter) and was 250K, so 4 independent platforms would still fit in under 1MB; Arthur is now working on KPARC, which has no compiler but does boot on metal and includes GUI, editor, db, filesystem, network, and a lot more, e.g. this http://kparc.com/edit.k http://kparc.com/edit.k is the implementation of native nano-style GUI editor. ; Last I heard, it was still <500KB.

aethertron 9y ago
kOS sounds like a dream. I'd love more info on it. Related HN link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8475809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8475809
- beagle3 9y ago
  Not very easy to come by, but if you haven't seen it yet, here's a presentation by geocar from 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrOg19gzP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrOg19gzP4

anta40 9y ago

>> A single binary, less than 1mb in size, that handles GC and cross compiles? Yeah, me too. I tried reading the Red source code, hmm still couldn't figure it out. Could someone explain how Red achieve this? Compared to GCC or FPC, Red is obviously very very very tiny :)