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Full disclosure: 2.5y ago I worked at HC for 8m You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. This comes from depression-era laws where peop

by entee 9y ago

Full disclosure: 2.5y ago I worked at HC for 8m You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. This comes from depression-era laws where people were passing fraudulent products off as the real thing. I think those laws still matter, but kind of miss the point here. As a different way to look at it, imagine a sort of food Turing Test. If it looks like the thing, it behaves like the thing in every meaningful way, and its taste is indistinguishable from the thing, is it not the thing? Maybe, maybe not, but I think it's an interesting question worth exploring.

jdavis703 9y ago
We better solve this fast. A lot of omnivorous people are quick to denounce vegan meat substitutes as fake. As in fraudulent kind of fake. This happens when people complain about how Taco Bell uses fake meat (i.e. soy) in their beef tacos for example.
- anon4728 9y ago
  There are some really good not chicken strips in the frozen section now. There's a world of difference between fraduent babyfood and obvious meat substitutes. The conflation of the two is academic dishonesty (and FUD) of the worst kind.
Lazare 9y ago
> You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. Wikipedia says "Mayonnaise is a thick, creamy dressing often used as a condiment. It is a stable emulsion of oil, egg yolk, and either vinegar or lemon juice, with many options for embellishment with other herbs and spices." Random House says "a thick dressing of egg yolks, vinegar or lemon juice, oil, and seasonings, used for salads, sandwiches, vegetable dishes, etc." Oxford Learner's Dictionary says "a thick cold white sauce made from eggs, oil and vinegar, used to add flavour to sandwiches, salads, etc.". Merriam-Webster says "a dressing made chiefly of egg yolks, vegetable oils, and vinegar or lemon juice". Oxford dictionary says "A thick creamy dressing consisting of egg yolks beaten with oil and vinegar and seasoned." Who's definition of mayonnaise doesn't involve eggs? How would you even define it except by mentioning eggs?
- chc 9y ago
  You could just replace "egg yolk" with "egg yolk or a similar substitute" — this is actually what many "optionally vegan" recipes do. I mean, the Wikipedia page for cake also mentions eggs — are cakes made without egg considered not to be real cakes either?
- VMG 9y ago
  From the consumers perspective, a definition centered around the production process is not very useful. One could try to define it by the measurable attributes of the final product.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    "From the consumers perspective, a definition centered around the production process is not very useful. " According to this viewpoint, it would be okay to label Kool-Aid and orange Fanta as "fruit juice". No.
- entee 9y ago
  Sure, but you're missing the larger question. If presented 2 dishes, one is traditional mayonnaise and the other is HC mayonnaise. If you can't tell the difference in how they behave/taste/whatever, are they not both effectively mayonnaise? I'm not arguing that you're wrong about what mayonnaise is, I'm adding a wrinkle to the concept of defining a food product. I don't have much of a dog in this fight, I personally care that it "does what it says on the tin" rather than fits a dictionary or other definition. That said I understand the counterpoint, I just think it's not quite as black-or-white.
  - Frondo 9y ago
    Not if mayonnaise is defined--as it currently seems to be--as a product with egg in it. That's sort of the crux of the matter, when we say "mayo" we mean the thing with egg in it, not anything that resembles the thing with egg in it. If you'd like to say, "let's stop defining mayo as the thing with egg in it," then maybe that's a discussion worth having, but it's a different issue than just, "can't we call this other thing that isn't mayo, mayo?"
killedbydeath 9y ago
I almost bought their stuff once. The bottle looked nice, and I was looking for mayo. I was not looking to experiment, so buying their stuff would a a case of me buying something because it pretends to be something else. I want things to be called what they are. They could have called it "I don't believe it's not mayo" or something but they decided to try to trap people. I would feel cheated even if it does taste like mayo, I don't want vegan mayo in my chicken salad.
- anon4728 9y ago
  You're too focused on marketing, and you eat meat and obviously don't care how your choices impact the planet.
clock_tower 9y ago
"Behaves like the thing in every meaningful way" needs to include nutrition -- and even then, sometimes where it came from and how it was made are also part of what it is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d'origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d'origine_contr%C3...)
- greglindahl 9y ago
  The nutrition, for mayonnaise, is "all fat with a tiny smidgen of protein"... not so hard to replicate. I've never seen an appellation applied to mayonnaise, have you?
  - clock_tower 9y ago
    "All fat with a tiny smidgen of protein" is an interesting way of describing egg yolks and olive oil. (Not saying that Helleman's is anything more than soybean oil and 3% egg solids, though.)
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      That's what the nutrition label for mayonnaise says, yes. It also says what kinds of fat. I didn't make this up, the FDA/Congress did.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
gumby 9y ago
This is why you can buy other spreads which are similar, but are not called "mayonnaise." This is why you can buy margerine and other butter substitutes under names other than "butter". This is why you can receive entertaining fantasy fiction on Fox but not have it called New... never mind.
maxerickson 9y ago
That it is just as awful as real mayo isn't a great defense for putting a picture of an egg on the packaging.
notyourday 9y ago
> You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. This comes from depression-era laws where people were passing fraudulent products off as the real thing. I think those laws still matter, but kind of miss the point her It comes from companies like HC still trying to lie on the labels.

by entee 9y ago

jdavis703 9y ago

We better solve this fast. A lot of omnivorous people are quick to denounce vegan meat substitutes as fake. As in fraudulent kind of fake. This happens when people complain about how Taco Bell uses fake meat (i.e. soy) in their beef tacos for example.

anon4728 9y ago
There are some really good not chicken strips in the frozen section now. There's a world of difference between fraduent babyfood and obvious meat substitutes. The conflation of the two is academic dishonesty (and FUD) of the worst kind.

Lazare 9y ago

> You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. Wikipedia says "Mayonnaise is a thick, creamy dressing often used as a condiment. It is a stable emulsion of oil, egg yolk, and either vinegar or lemon juice, with many options for embellishment with other herbs and spices." Random House says "a thick dressing of egg yolks, vinegar or lemon juice, oil, and seasonings, used for salads, sandwiches, vegetable dishes, etc." Oxford Learner's Dictionary says "a thick cold white sauce made from eggs, oil and vinegar, used to add flavour to sandwiches, salads, etc.". Merriam-Webster says "a dressing made chiefly of egg yolks, vegetable oils, and vinegar or lemon juice". Oxford dictionary says "A thick creamy dressing consisting of egg yolks beaten with oil and vinegar and seasoned." Who's definition of mayonnaise doesn't involve eggs? How would you even define it except by mentioning eggs?

chc 9y ago
You could just replace "egg yolk" with "egg yolk or a similar substitute" — this is actually what many "optionally vegan" recipes do. I mean, the Wikipedia page for cake also mentions eggs — are cakes made without egg considered not to be real cakes either?
VMG 9y ago
From the consumers perspective, a definition centered around the production process is not very useful. One could try to define it by the measurable attributes of the final product.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  "From the consumers perspective, a definition centered around the production process is not very useful. " According to this viewpoint, it would be okay to label Kool-Aid and orange Fanta as "fruit juice". No.
entee 9y ago
Sure, but you're missing the larger question. If presented 2 dishes, one is traditional mayonnaise and the other is HC mayonnaise. If you can't tell the difference in how they behave/taste/whatever, are they not both effectively mayonnaise? I'm not arguing that you're wrong about what mayonnaise is, I'm adding a wrinkle to the concept of defining a food product. I don't have much of a dog in this fight, I personally care that it "does what it says on the tin" rather than fits a dictionary or other definition. That said I understand the counterpoint, I just think it's not quite as black-or-white.
- Frondo 9y ago
  Not if mayonnaise is defined--as it currently seems to be--as a product with egg in it. That's sort of the crux of the matter, when we say "mayo" we mean the thing with egg in it, not anything that resembles the thing with egg in it. If you'd like to say, "let's stop defining mayo as the thing with egg in it," then maybe that's a discussion worth having, but it's a different issue than just, "can't we call this other thing that isn't mayo, mayo?"

killedbydeath 9y ago

I almost bought their stuff once. The bottle looked nice, and I was looking for mayo. I was not looking to experiment, so buying their stuff would a a case of me buying something because it pretends to be something else. I want things to be called what they are. They could have called it "I don't believe it's not mayo" or something but they decided to try to trap people. I would feel cheated even if it does taste like mayo, I don't want vegan mayo in my chicken salad.

anon4728 9y ago
You're too focused on marketing, and you eat meat and obviously don't care how your choices impact the planet.

clock_tower 9y ago

"Behaves like the thing in every meaningful way" needs to include nutrition -- and even then, sometimes where it came from and how it was made are also part of what it is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d'origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d'origine_contr%C3...)

greglindahl 9y ago
The nutrition, for mayonnaise, is "all fat with a tiny smidgen of protein"... not so hard to replicate. I've never seen an appellation applied to mayonnaise, have you?
- clock_tower 9y ago
  "All fat with a tiny smidgen of protein" is an interesting way of describing egg yolks and olive oil. (Not saying that Helleman's is anything more than soybean oil and 3% egg solids, though.)
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    That's what the nutrition label for mayonnaise says, yes. It also says what kinds of fat. I didn't make this up, the FDA/Congress did.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

gumby 9y ago

This is why you can buy other spreads which are similar, but are not called "mayonnaise." This is why you can buy margerine and other butter substitutes under names other than "butter". This is why you can receive entertaining fantasy fiction on Fox but not have it called New... never mind.

maxerickson 9y ago

That it is just as awful as real mayo isn't a great defense for putting a picture of an egg on the packaging.

notyourday 9y ago

> You're right that the FDA definition of mayonnaise requires egg. This comes from depression-era laws where people were passing fraudulent products off as the real thing. I think those laws still matter, but kind of miss the point her It comes from companies like HC still trying to lie on the labels.