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> Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all h

> Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. Build your own shelter. 100% of your time will go towards the things you want to do. You don't even have to go that far, you can pick and choose your amount of engagement. I met a guy at the bar who was visiting from, was it South Dakota? Way out there. Had like 8 different little business-y things he did to make a living. Only reason he came down here was to visit his mom. Whatever it is you want, holding down a stable, reliable job is a great way to move closer to it. People with irrational mindsets will never agree to a rational course of action. It's all gotta happen right now.

coldtea 9y ago
>That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. For all your talk of irrationality, this is the classic slippery slope fallacy. As if the only two options are dependence on salaried work as an employee and escape away from civilization. Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. Something only terminally hippies would ever attempt. When it's not just extremely common, but it's just as valid way of working as any other. Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  No, it's you committing the slippery slope fallacy. You introduced the idea of being independent. I offered one extreme solution and one not so extreme solution and indicated how you could pick and choose just how dramatic you want to go. You are the one who is saying I gave a either-or. > Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. I said nothing of the sort! I know lots of successful entrepreneurs. That's a great path to take if you want to do it. But you get there by learning about entrepreneurship and marketing, not by wishing and wishing you can quit your job. > Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"? Good thing I was only there for two years.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >You are the one who is saying I gave a either-or. That's not the case (plus I'm not the parent who you were responding to). The parent wrote: "Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself." And you responded: "That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid." That's the dictionary definition of the slippery slope fallacy. The parent didn't say anything about "really [wanting] to get away from all human dependence", so why bring this up? He just said that working for yourself is more free than working for someone else. And you continued that "Whatever it is you want, holding down a stable, reliable job is a great way to move closer to it" freelancing or creating one's own business is not an option, and everybody is better of to achieve their goals by "holding down a stable, reliable job". Tens of millions of people started straight into either freelancing or getting their own business while young or even straight out of college. An office or salaried job has never been a requirement, and has become even less so nowadays. >I said nothing of the sort! I know lots of successful entrepreneurs. That's a great path to take if you want to do it. But you get there by learning about entrepreneurship and marketing, not by wishing and wishing you can quit your job. Who said about "wishing you can quit your job"? TFA and other people in these comments spoke about actually quitting your job. Or not starting with one in the first place, but doing your own thing from the start. Heck, the article is about the guy completing 10 years doing his thing, not about them "wishing they can quit their job".
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      Maybe I'm more off-the-handle here than I care to admit. I don't know why I still get constantly surprised by the crazy idealism of HN. I'm a 100% dyed in the wool hacker, coded BASIC in grade school, but there are aspects about the culture that still elude me, mostly because I have a lot of other identities and can't constantly keep tabs on what this particular community feels. So yeah, I'll concede the logical points you raised. But you have no idea how many really and truly irrational people I've run into in my day. Life wasn't kind to them, and I'm expected to fix it, and if I don't, I'm the irrational / disloyal one. I am very very attuned to the irrational mindset. But HN has its crazy idealism, so the second I call one person irrational, everybody here jumps on me like I'm a crazy job Nazi. I attacked your idealism, I must pay. I get this crap with my roommate, who pissed away 3 jobs since I've known him and have to give a break on the rent because he's satisfying other obligations that he took on at least partly due to idealism. So let me state, for the record, that not wanting to have a 9-5 job is an eminently rational thing to want. Wanting it against reality, however, or without a realistic plan to accomplish it, or settling on stupid ways of getting there, like just quitting without a game plan, is a recipe for pain, not prosperity. You're not dealing from a rational frame, so your outcomes will not be what you want them to be. My strong reaction comes from many many years of dealing with people who beg for your help, but just can't be helped. You can't talk sense into them, you can't give them anything that would meaningfully help them.
dyarosla 9y ago
You're taking my argument to a ridiculous extreme, nowhere did I extend it to ridding self of human dependence. It looks like you are simply content to keep pushing an ideology instead of replying to what's being said.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

coldtea 9y ago

>That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. For all your talk of irrationality, this is the classic slippery slope fallacy. As if the only two options are dependence on salaried work as an employee and escape away from civilization. Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. Something only terminally hippies would ever attempt. When it's not just extremely common, but it's just as valid way of working as any other. Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"?

vinceguidry 9y ago
No, it's you committing the slippery slope fallacy. You introduced the idea of being independent. I offered one extreme solution and one not so extreme solution and indicated how you could pick and choose just how dramatic you want to go. You are the one who is saying I gave a either-or. > Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. I said nothing of the sort! I know lots of successful entrepreneurs. That's a great path to take if you want to do it. But you get there by learning about entrepreneurship and marketing, not by wishing and wishing you can quit your job. > Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"? Good thing I was only there for two years.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >You are the one who is saying I gave a either-or. That's not the case (plus I'm not the parent who you were responding to). The parent wrote: "Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself." And you responded: "That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid." That's the dictionary definition of the slippery slope fallacy. The parent didn't say anything about "really [wanting] to get away from all human dependence", so why bring this up? He just said that working for yourself is more free than working for someone else. And you continued that "Whatever it is you want, holding down a stable, reliable job is a great way to move closer to it" freelancing or creating one's own business is not an option, and everybody is better of to achieve their goals by "holding down a stable, reliable job". Tens of millions of people started straight into either freelancing or getting their own business while young or even straight out of college. An office or salaried job has never been a requirement, and has become even less so nowadays. >I said nothing of the sort! I know lots of successful entrepreneurs. That's a great path to take if you want to do it. But you get there by learning about entrepreneurship and marketing, not by wishing and wishing you can quit your job. Who said about "wishing you can quit your job"? TFA and other people in these comments spoke about actually quitting your job. Or not starting with one in the first place, but doing your own thing from the start. Heck, the article is about the guy completing 10 years doing his thing, not about them "wishing they can quit their job".
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    Maybe I'm more off-the-handle here than I care to admit. I don't know why I still get constantly surprised by the crazy idealism of HN. I'm a 100% dyed in the wool hacker, coded BASIC in grade school, but there are aspects about the culture that still elude me, mostly because I have a lot of other identities and can't constantly keep tabs on what this particular community feels. So yeah, I'll concede the logical points you raised. But you have no idea how many really and truly irrational people I've run into in my day. Life wasn't kind to them, and I'm expected to fix it, and if I don't, I'm the irrational / disloyal one. I am very very attuned to the irrational mindset. But HN has its crazy idealism, so the second I call one person irrational, everybody here jumps on me like I'm a crazy job Nazi. I attacked your idealism, I must pay. I get this crap with my roommate, who pissed away 3 jobs since I've known him and have to give a break on the rent because he's satisfying other obligations that he took on at least partly due to idealism. So let me state, for the record, that not wanting to have a 9-5 job is an eminently rational thing to want. Wanting it against reality, however, or without a realistic plan to accomplish it, or settling on stupid ways of getting there, like just quitting without a game plan, is a recipe for pain, not prosperity. You're not dealing from a rational frame, so your outcomes will not be what you want them to be. My strong reaction comes from many many years of dealing with people who beg for your help, but just can't be helped. You can't talk sense into them, you can't give them anything that would meaningfully help them.

dyarosla 9y ago

You're taking my argument to a ridiculous extreme, nowhere did I extend it to ridding self of human dependence. It looks like you are simply content to keep pushing an ideology instead of replying to what's being said.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]