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The desire is irrational because it doesn't respond to reason. If you try to drill down to real specifics with these people, then eventually you have to give up

The desire is irrational because it doesn't respond to reason. If you try to drill down to real specifics with these people, then eventually you have to give up because there aren't any. They're fixated on not having anything that looks or feels like a job. They can't be convinced that less drastic measures are necessary. They won't engage with their problems logically. You mention control, they want control of their fortunes. That might be true if not for the fact that they don't actually want to learn anything 'salesy'. Their decision-making process is completely oriented around not having a job, not around making money. Because if they really wanted to make money under their own steam, then that would be their goal, and the intermediate steps would reflect that. The closest I can get to these people's underlying thought mechanics is that they just don't want to subordinate any time at all to anyone else. They want complete 100% control over all of their time. Which would be really nice, but c'mon now.

asdf33323 9y ago
This reads like someone who has never stepped out of their comfort zone and just wants to justify their own life choices.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  I dunno. I jumped from school to the military, then out of the military into the workforce. I've had spiritual adventures and travel adventures. I am somebody who knows what I want and why I want it. And I've found that the best path to getting those things is usually the one you're already on, you just have to make slight course corrections.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - coldtea 9y ago
    >I dunno. I jumped from school to the military, then out of the military into the workforce. I've had spiritual adventures and travel adventures. And the message from those adventures was "keep your day job and don't try anything independent"?
  - ajkjk 9y ago
    But why do you find it so hard to empathize with people who look at their lives in a different way? What's with going around calling people irrational instead of just different than you?
dyarosla 9y ago
> They want complete 100% control over all of their time. Which would be really nice, but c'mon now. I think you may be under-valuing how much some people like to be in control of what they put their time towards. These are the people who hate taking a class because its a requirement for a degree, or doing an entry level job that they have no interest in simply to pay the bills. Work is a large part of life. But not working for someone isn't about 'controlling your fortune' so much as it is controlling what you get to put your effort towards for a large portion of your life. Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. Or at least, that's the eventual goal. It's quite rational.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  > Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. Build your own shelter. 100% of your time will go towards the things you want to do. You don't even have to go that far, you can pick and choose your amount of engagement. I met a guy at the bar who was visiting from, was it South Dakota? Way out there. Had like 8 different little business-y things he did to make a living. Only reason he came down here was to visit his mom. Whatever it is you want, holding down a stable, reliable job is a great way to move closer to it. People with irrational mindsets will never agree to a rational course of action. It's all gotta happen right now.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. For all your talk of irrationality, this is the classic slippery slope fallacy. As if the only two options are dependence on salaried work as an employee and escape away from civilization. Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. Something only terminally hippies would ever attempt. When it's not just extremely common, but it's just as valid way of working as any other. Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"?
taytus 9y ago
Just because those decisions doesn't align with YOUR reasoning doesn't make them irrationals.
nyrulez 9y ago
The reasons aren't that difficult. They are usually autonomy, creativity and dictating your own pace. I didn't mention less/more stress or less/more money but they are somewhere there too. These can be huge reasons for folks wanting to pursue their own path. Depends on the personality.
coldtea 9y ago
>The desire is irrational because it doesn't respond to reason. Whereas the desire to go be somebody's helper for 8 (or more) hours every day, be on their command, and work on implementing their dreams and plans, stands to reason? >Their decision-making process is completely oriented around not having a job, not around making money. You seem to be convinced that the pinnacle of reason is making money.
kafkaesq 9y ago
If you try to drill down to real specifics with these people, then eventually you have to give up because there aren't any. They're fixated on not having anything that looks or feels like a job. They can't be convinced that less drastic measures are necessary. They won't engage with their problems logically. Hmm. I'm not going to say you're overgeneralizing, because you probably do have observational data behind your summation above. But even if it applies to the majority of "escapists" -- there's a significant percentage out there who not only do have plan; they make up for a good chunk of the truly brilliant and creative people who do anything truly interesting, at all. The closest I can get to these people's underlying thought mechanics is that they just don't want to subordinate any time at all to anyone else. They want complete 100% control over all of their time. Which would be really nice, but c'mon now. OK, now we're getting somewhere. But is it really that outlandish? There's this category of people known as "small business owners", you know - who basically fit that description. In fact, if you look around, there's quite a lot of them out there. In addition to, you know, genuinely creative people -- successful film makers, musicians and the like. Are you saying they all should've just thrown in the towel, gotten a teaching job or something because... there's just no "there" in these pursuits they were almost blindingly attracted to? C'mon now.
- EvanAnderson 9y ago
  "Entrepreneurs are the crazy people who work 100 hours a week so they don’t have to work 40 hours for someone else" (https://twitter.com/richardbranson/status/488646661326245888 https://twitter.com/richardbranson/status/488646661326245888)
  - coldtea 9y ago
    If you think Richard Branson ever worked even 40 hours a week in his life the way an employee does, you'd be surprised. He had a hippy indy prog record company that got lucky with an unexpected hit record. The rest is investing, self-marketing, and networking, hard work (a la Jobs or Carmcak or Gates etc.) was seldom required.
    - 9y ago

asdf33323 9y ago

This reads like someone who has never stepped out of their comfort zone and just wants to justify their own life choices.

vinceguidry 9y ago
I dunno. I jumped from school to the military, then out of the military into the workforce. I've had spiritual adventures and travel adventures. I am somebody who knows what I want and why I want it. And I've found that the best path to getting those things is usually the one you're already on, you just have to make slight course corrections.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I dunno. I jumped from school to the military, then out of the military into the workforce. I've had spiritual adventures and travel adventures. And the message from those adventures was "keep your day job and don't try anything independent"?
- ajkjk 9y ago
  But why do you find it so hard to empathize with people who look at their lives in a different way? What's with going around calling people irrational instead of just different than you?

dyarosla 9y ago

> They want complete 100% control over all of their time. Which would be really nice, but c'mon now. I think you may be under-valuing how much some people like to be in control of what they put their time towards. These are the people who hate taking a class because its a requirement for a degree, or doing an entry level job that they have no interest in simply to pay the bills. Work is a large part of life. But not working for someone isn't about 'controlling your fortune' so much as it is controlling what you get to put your effort towards for a large portion of your life. Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. Or at least, that's the eventual goal. It's quite rational.

vinceguidry 9y ago
> Having to work for someone else will lead to less freedom of choice than working for yourself. That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. Build your own shelter. 100% of your time will go towards the things you want to do. You don't even have to go that far, you can pick and choose your amount of engagement. I met a guy at the bar who was visiting from, was it South Dakota? Way out there. Had like 8 different little business-y things he did to make a living. Only reason he came down here was to visit his mom. Whatever it is you want, holding down a stable, reliable job is a great way to move closer to it. People with irrational mindsets will never agree to a rational course of action. It's all gotta happen right now.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >That's just silly. If you really wanted to get away from all human dependence, the path to that is clear, go live out in the woods off the grid. For all your talk of irrationality, this is the classic slippery slope fallacy. As if the only two options are dependence on salaried work as an employee and escape away from civilization. Listening to you one would think that wanting to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer is something exotic, for really crazy daredevils. Something only terminally hippies would ever attempt. When it's not just extremely common, but it's just as valid way of working as any other. Maybe the military is not the best place to learn everything there is about employment and the motivations of people, or about what's "rational"?

taytus 9y ago

Just because those decisions doesn't align with YOUR reasoning doesn't make them irrationals.

nyrulez 9y ago

The reasons aren't that difficult. They are usually autonomy, creativity and dictating your own pace. I didn't mention less/more stress or less/more money but they are somewhere there too. These can be huge reasons for folks wanting to pursue their own path. Depends on the personality.

coldtea 9y ago

>The desire is irrational because it doesn't respond to reason. Whereas the desire to go be somebody's helper for 8 (or more) hours every day, be on their command, and work on implementing their dreams and plans, stands to reason? >Their decision-making process is completely oriented around not having a job, not around making money. You seem to be convinced that the pinnacle of reason is making money.

kafkaesq 9y ago

If you try to drill down to real specifics with these people, then eventually you have to give up because there aren't any. They're fixated on not having anything that looks or feels like a job. They can't be convinced that less drastic measures are necessary. They won't engage with their problems logically. Hmm. I'm not going to say you're overgeneralizing, because you probably do have observational data behind your summation above. But even if it applies to the majority of "escapists" -- there's a significant percentage out there who not only do have plan; they make up for a good chunk of the truly brilliant and creative people who do anything truly interesting, at all. The closest I can get to these people's underlying thought mechanics is that they just don't want to subordinate any time at all to anyone else. They want complete 100% control over all of their time. Which would be really nice, but c'mon now. OK, now we're getting somewhere. But is it really that outlandish? There's this category of people known as "small business owners", you know - who basically fit that description. In fact, if you look around, there's quite a lot of them out there. In addition to, you know, genuinely creative people -- successful film makers, musicians and the like. Are you saying they all should've just thrown in the towel, gotten a teaching job or something because... there's just no "there" in these pursuits they were almost blindingly attracted to? C'mon now.

EvanAnderson 9y ago
"Entrepreneurs are the crazy people who work 100 hours a week so they don’t have to work 40 hours for someone else" (https://twitter.com/richardbranson/status/488646661326245888 https://twitter.com/richardbranson/status/488646661326245888)
- coldtea 9y ago
  If you think Richard Branson ever worked even 40 hours a week in his life the way an employee does, you'd be surprised. He had a hippy indy prog record company that got lucky with an unexpected hit record. The rest is investing, self-marketing, and networking, hard work (a la Jobs or Carmcak or Gates etc.) was seldom required.
  - 9y ago