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Learn Lojban today: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda Lojban is based on predicate and relational logic, and parses una

Learn Lojban today: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda Lojban is based on predicate and relational logic, and parses unambiguously for both humans and computers, meaning that we can get straight to semantics instead of faffing about with syntax.

throwaway7645 9y ago
Anytime Lojban comes up I recommend taking a look at linguist Arika Okrent's book "Into the Land of Invented Languages". She learns several conlangs (constructed languages) during the book and has several chapters devoted to the history and her learning of Lojban and some of its pitfalls (some things take a lot of words to say). There's a reason why natural languages have so much ambiguity, so you don't have to write a novel to have a basic conversation. If you go to wikitongues on YouTube you'll see a prominent community member who can only read it and can't speak it...it isn't easy. Edit: Lojban is ambiguous with how something is said, so when a speaker says something you should never misinterpret the words, but the meaning could be misinterpreted as I understand it. I'm no expert, but would love to see something like this take off.
- rumcajz 9y ago
  When it comes to book recommendations I would recommend Umberto Eco's The Search for the Perfect Language.
  - throwaway7645 9y ago
    Speaking of Larry Wall (creator of Perl) above, "the search for the perfect language" is his favorite book I believe.
- zephyrfalcon 9y ago
  """I recommend taking a look at linguist Arika Okrent's book "Into the Land of Invented Languages""" I used to have that book... I didn't think it was very good. I wanted to learn more about the various conlangs, but instead the author mostly focused on their creators, and then especially their idiosyncrasies and quirks. For those who want to know more about conlangs, I would recommend "The Language Construction Kit" by Mark Rosenfelder.
  - anthonybullard 9y ago
    The Language Construction Kit is phenomenal and played a huge part in developing my love of conlangs as well as linguistics in general.
  - throwaway7645 9y ago
    The Language Construction Kit is great from everything I've read. Yes her book is more on the history & pro/cons of various conlangs mixed with examples...etc. It's not supposed to teach you Klingon, Lojban, Esperanto, and several others all in one book.
- sriku 9y ago
  An aside - the brilliant Star Trek episode Darmok [1] shows the importance of the shared cultural context in which communication happens. [2] is a snippet of the episode where the crew is perplexed by the "language" of the "Tamarians". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI
kbenson 9y ago
> parses unambiguously for both humans and computers I suspect this is only because there are so few speakers of Lojban. As soon as a language is in common use, it will be extended naturally by the users. I doubt any level of consistency can be enforced over time in that case. Popular slang and idioms generally make it into a language if they persist long enough. Good luck keeping unambiguous parsing in that case.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
  Exactly. When you have a language no one actually realistically speaks, you can stuff whatever highfalutin ideas you want into it.
- TremendousJudge 9y ago
  Just look at JavaScript
  - msla 9y ago
    JavaScript cannot be ambiguous because there's a constant acid test: Does the machine find it ambiguous? If it does, it fails to parse. (If it parses, it wasn't ambiguous, but it still might mean something the programmer didn't intend.) That property will hold until we do something like embedding AI in the compiler. Humans can deal with ambiguity. There are various reasons for humans to want to be ambiguous, and any natural language has to support that to be useful for day-to-day conversation. Loglan and Lojban might well escape that, if they're only ever used in contexts where ambiguity is not desired and will be repaired if it is found. Think formal specifications, not love letters.
    - setr 9y ago
      Isn't the automated insertion of semicolons to your detrimemt a result of ambiguity in the language, and the compiler forced to decide
      - laszlokorte 9y ago
jhbadger 9y ago
But it is only the syntax that is unambiguous in Lojban -- the semantics (which in the real world are the cause of most misunderstandings) are pretty much open to as much ambiguity as any other language. The Lojban word for love, "prami" covers love of one's spouse, love of one's children and love of one's pets, much as "love" does in English. These are obviously very different feelings.
truthexposer 9y ago
Semantics is never fully unambiguous, because of its interface with pragmatics, which Lojban doesn't deal with at all. There is no systematic way to unambiguously convey tone, register, etc.

throwaway7645 9y ago

Anytime Lojban comes up I recommend taking a look at linguist Arika Okrent's book "Into the Land of Invented Languages". She learns several conlangs (constructed languages) during the book and has several chapters devoted to the history and her learning of Lojban and some of its pitfalls (some things take a lot of words to say). There's a reason why natural languages have so much ambiguity, so you don't have to write a novel to have a basic conversation. If you go to wikitongues on YouTube you'll see a prominent community member who can only read it and can't speak it...it isn't easy. Edit: Lojban is ambiguous with how something is said, so when a speaker says something you should never misinterpret the words, but the meaning could be misinterpreted as I understand it. I'm no expert, but would love to see something like this take off.

rumcajz 9y ago
When it comes to book recommendations I would recommend Umberto Eco's The Search for the Perfect Language.
- throwaway7645 9y ago
  Speaking of Larry Wall (creator of Perl) above, "the search for the perfect language" is his favorite book I believe.
zephyrfalcon 9y ago
"""I recommend taking a look at linguist Arika Okrent's book "Into the Land of Invented Languages""" I used to have that book... I didn't think it was very good. I wanted to learn more about the various conlangs, but instead the author mostly focused on their creators, and then especially their idiosyncrasies and quirks. For those who want to know more about conlangs, I would recommend "The Language Construction Kit" by Mark Rosenfelder.
- anthonybullard 9y ago
  The Language Construction Kit is phenomenal and played a huge part in developing my love of conlangs as well as linguistics in general.
- throwaway7645 9y ago
  The Language Construction Kit is great from everything I've read. Yes her book is more on the history & pro/cons of various conlangs mixed with examples...etc. It's not supposed to teach you Klingon, Lojban, Esperanto, and several others all in one book.
sriku 9y ago
An aside - the brilliant Star Trek episode Darmok [1] shows the importance of the shared cultural context in which communication happens. [2] is a snippet of the episode where the crew is perplexed by the "language" of the "Tamarians". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI

kbenson 9y ago

> parses unambiguously for both humans and computers I suspect this is only because there are so few speakers of Lojban. As soon as a language is in common use, it will be extended naturally by the users. I doubt any level of consistency can be enforced over time in that case. Popular slang and idioms generally make it into a language if they persist long enough. Good luck keeping unambiguous parsing in that case.

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
Exactly. When you have a language no one actually realistically speaks, you can stuff whatever highfalutin ideas you want into it.
TremendousJudge 9y ago
Just look at JavaScript
- msla 9y ago
  JavaScript cannot be ambiguous because there's a constant acid test: Does the machine find it ambiguous? If it does, it fails to parse. (If it parses, it wasn't ambiguous, but it still might mean something the programmer didn't intend.) That property will hold until we do something like embedding AI in the compiler. Humans can deal with ambiguity. There are various reasons for humans to want to be ambiguous, and any natural language has to support that to be useful for day-to-day conversation. Loglan and Lojban might well escape that, if they're only ever used in contexts where ambiguity is not desired and will be repaired if it is found. Think formal specifications, not love letters.
  - setr 9y ago
    Isn't the automated insertion of semicolons to your detrimemt a result of ambiguity in the language, and the compiler forced to decide
    - laszlokorte 9y ago

jhbadger 9y ago

But it is only the syntax that is unambiguous in Lojban -- the semantics (which in the real world are the cause of most misunderstandings) are pretty much open to as much ambiguity as any other language. The Lojban word for love, "prami" covers love of one's spouse, love of one's children and love of one's pets, much as "love" does in English. These are obviously very different feelings.

truthexposer 9y ago

Semantics is never fully unambiguous, because of its interface with pragmatics, which Lojban doesn't deal with at all. There is no systematic way to unambiguously convey tone, register, etc.