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Labor laws in the US clearly state that if the person is working unpaid the company cannot receive any immediate benefits for his or her position. This means th

by _pi 16y ago

Labor laws in the US clearly state that if the person is working unpaid the company cannot receive any immediate benefits for his or her position. This means that you can't have the person "hands on learning" while working on your product or working at a client site. That is purely illegal unless they're doing it for course credit. Again if you take on a college student but they cannot get course credit, however even if their university offers it and you derive immediate benefit from their employment it's illegal. I understand if someone cold cases you for an internship and you cannot pay them but they want to learn and have some position in your company it's a bit more acceptable. But essentially if you send out job postings for interns you support a systematic evil in the job market of the US. These people have no choice but to work for you if they want to work in their field, and obviously no choice but to do so for free. You essentially try to write it off by saying it gives them value or experience but you as an employer are more interested in the free labor rather than what they derive out of it. There is no way around that. You aren't hiring them for their sake, you're hiring them because you get free labor that they are excited to do, and that's the best deal for you because you get the profit from it. This hurts what people value their career at a critical juncture when they enter the job market. They see that everyone has to take unpaid internships meaning that companies aren't willing to value their work, this gets them thinking that their work is valueless. Which in turn is worse for any employer because the performance of the employee would suffer because of this diffusion of responsibility. In short posted unpaid internships hurt the job market, hurt companies and most importantly hurt workers in their most critical time. Not only that but you seem to relish the opportunity of a person who is super excited to work on something for you for free, which is disrespectful of anyone you hire. I'm not against all unpaid internships, but most people see it as free labor, not altruistically training new employees for the job market. Even this article is prefaced with "Yay free labor in the summer!" which is what triggered my response, specifically this line: "I’m talking about internships - free, grunt work labor in the hopes of making connections and gaining a little bit of experience along the way."

travisro 16y ago
"I understand if someone cold cases you for an internship and you cannot pay them but they want to learn and have some position in your company it's a bit more acceptable. But essentially if you send out job postings for interns you support a systematic evil in the job market of the US. These people have no choice but to work for you if they want to work in their field, and obviously no choice but to do so for free." Wow! You're telling me that if I send out a job posting for interns, not only am I supporting a "systematic evil in the job market" but they have "no choice"? Really? First, what systematic evil are you referring to? Second, nobody is holding a gun to their heads. They have a choice. Do you want to give up some of your time for a chance to learn something? Yes or no. There's no duping involved. It's laid out. Also, at the end of the post, I clearly state that anybody offering an internship program SHOULD offer some sort of fiscal or other reward if the intern performs well. As for the line you quote: in context, it's written from the perspective of the intern - not the employer. I'll concede that it wasn't entirely obvious, though. :)
- _pi 16y ago
  "Wow! You're telling me that if I send out a job posting for interns, not only am I supporting a "systematic evil in the job market" but they have "no choice"? Really? First, what systematic evil are you referring to? Second, nobody is holding a gun to their heads. They have a choice. Do you want to give up some of your time for a chance to learn something? Yes or no. There's no duping involved. It's laid out. Also, at the end of the post, I clearly state that anybody offering an internship program SHOULD offer some sort of fiscal or other reward if the intern performs well." Actually because of the economic situation in the United States people who don't have senior level experience in the job market take unpaid internships at companies because they think that they would be better selected for a position in that company.These people have to eat somehow. It's not morally right to send out internships and get these kinds of people, and then hire them. Or try to create a job market such as that while maximizing your own profits off of these people. It's almost equivocal to outsourcing, only outsourcing. I'm sure you haven't had these kinds of people ask you for a job, but keep in mind that does happen. Not only that but many internships even GSoC are an outright insult for free labor. For instance the projects for Facebook in GSoC this year were ridiculous, they wanted college kids to build entire SMTP servers for their platforms, or drop in a replacement for libcurl, or at least code one, in one summer. Honestly if you ask me those tasks seem way over the level of students because they are broad projects requiring a team of developers to test for rigor in the system. They aren't the only company who pulls stunts like this, there are worse companies who want this done for free. "As for the line you quote: in context, it's written from the perspective of the intern - not the employer. I'll concede that it wasn't entirely obvious, though. :)" This also emphasizes my point about the person's view of themselves. No on wants to be a slave, doing "grunt work", just for a glittering hint of networking.
  - travisro 16y ago
    Do you have any sort of data to back up the claim that people are taking internships and going hungry because they don't have senior-level experience? I would think that it being a "systemic evil" would certainly warrant at least a few newsworthy articles or stories. Besides, nobody is arguing that something like that would be a morally acceptable situation or that people engage in that type of activity. As for GSoC, again...voluntary. The kids have fun and they earn monetary rewards for their work.

by _pi 16y ago

travisro 16y ago

"I understand if someone cold cases you for an internship and you cannot pay them but they want to learn and have some position in your company it's a bit more acceptable. But essentially if you send out job postings for interns you support a systematic evil in the job market of the US. These people have no choice but to work for you if they want to work in their field, and obviously no choice but to do so for free." Wow! You're telling me that if I send out a job posting for interns, not only am I supporting a "systematic evil in the job market" but they have "no choice"? Really? First, what systematic evil are you referring to? Second, nobody is holding a gun to their heads. They have a choice. Do you want to give up some of your time for a chance to learn something? Yes or no. There's no duping involved. It's laid out. Also, at the end of the post, I clearly state that anybody offering an internship program SHOULD offer some sort of fiscal or other reward if the intern performs well. As for the line you quote: in context, it's written from the perspective of the intern - not the employer. I'll concede that it wasn't entirely obvious, though. :)

_pi 16y ago
"Wow! You're telling me that if I send out a job posting for interns, not only am I supporting a "systematic evil in the job market" but they have "no choice"? Really? First, what systematic evil are you referring to? Second, nobody is holding a gun to their heads. They have a choice. Do you want to give up some of your time for a chance to learn something? Yes or no. There's no duping involved. It's laid out. Also, at the end of the post, I clearly state that anybody offering an internship program SHOULD offer some sort of fiscal or other reward if the intern performs well." Actually because of the economic situation in the United States people who don't have senior level experience in the job market take unpaid internships at companies because they think that they would be better selected for a position in that company.These people have to eat somehow. It's not morally right to send out internships and get these kinds of people, and then hire them. Or try to create a job market such as that while maximizing your own profits off of these people. It's almost equivocal to outsourcing, only outsourcing. I'm sure you haven't had these kinds of people ask you for a job, but keep in mind that does happen. Not only that but many internships even GSoC are an outright insult for free labor. For instance the projects for Facebook in GSoC this year were ridiculous, they wanted college kids to build entire SMTP servers for their platforms, or drop in a replacement for libcurl, or at least code one, in one summer. Honestly if you ask me those tasks seem way over the level of students because they are broad projects requiring a team of developers to test for rigor in the system. They aren't the only company who pulls stunts like this, there are worse companies who want this done for free. "As for the line you quote: in context, it's written from the perspective of the intern - not the employer. I'll concede that it wasn't entirely obvious, though. :)" This also emphasizes my point about the person's view of themselves. No on wants to be a slave, doing "grunt work", just for a glittering hint of networking.
- travisro 16y ago
  Do you have any sort of data to back up the claim that people are taking internships and going hungry because they don't have senior-level experience? I would think that it being a "systemic evil" would certainly warrant at least a few newsworthy articles or stories. Besides, nobody is arguing that something like that would be a morally acceptable situation or that people engage in that type of activity. As for GSoC, again...voluntary. The kids have fun and they earn monetary rewards for their work.