8 ms·

You know hay fever is an allergy, right? And that you are allergic to specific pollen? These pollen are _seasonal_. It's not suprising that your symptoms are no

You know hay fever is an allergy, right? And that you are allergic to specific pollen? These pollen are _seasonal_. It's not suprising that your symptoms are now gone, it's very probable that the allergen is just gone (for the season). The snake-oil has done nothing. Get a proper allergy test. > I think that to dismiss everything that's not evidence based medicine as snake oil, like this article does, is just as bad as dismissing mainstream medicine like Goop appears to do. I really don't think you are in a position to judge that.

maxxxxx 9y ago
"I really don't think you are in a position to judge that. " Neither are you. You can't just dismiss someone's experience as bullshit.
- Retric 9y ago
  They provided a completely rational explanation for what's going on. Simply waiting 4-8 weeks treats the vast majority of common issues. Either because they get better, the environment changes, or because the brain ends up ignoring repeated stimulus. Which is the secret to much of this stuff, they don't say just wait but because treatments are designed to take a while a significant number of people will make the association. PS: Some include useful diet changes and exercise, but people often ignore their doctors giving the same advice so YMMV.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    A completely rational explanation that may or may not be the answer. If my car disappears from my garage, it may be because it was stolen, or maybe because it was transported to an alien planet by extra-terrestrial life forms. My assertion that it was E.T. does not mean that your counter-assertion that it was stolen is true. Maybe I lent it to a friend and forgot, or my wife took it to be pimped out on Overhaulin', or that it was repossessed due to some bank error. It's quite appropriate to raise additional possible explanations. It's quite inappropriate to tell someone that their treatment is in no way causative to the amelioration of symptoms, especially when they cannot know for certain that they were not.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      I'm note sure I follow your logic. Are you saying that if you can't give specific, alternative explanations for the missing car, we must consider aliens a plausible explanation?
      - bmelton 9y ago
        I'm saying that if you, a person who is probably not privy to the medical details of another random internet poster, cannot factually assert that dietary changes had nothing to do with his hay fever, then it is inappropriate to assert that it had nothing to do with his hay fever as fact. We know that there are foods that have medical benefit. There are foods that contain anti-histamine capabilities, for example, or decongestant capabilities that could have been positively impactful on hay fever. These may have been a part of OP's dietary supplements. Without knowing what the supplements were, we cannot dismiss that they might possibly have been of aid.
        Retric 9y ago
        I never said it was the correct answer, but if you say the car was captured by aliens and I say it may have just been towed. The rational thing is to consider things in order of probability vs. risk not necessarily go with aliens every time. I mean sure it could have been stolen, or towed, or aliens, etc. But, the point is when what happens can have reasonable explanations it's not evidence for ET.
        bmelton 9y ago
        The OP I'm responding to said, specifically "The snake-oil has done nothing," which they cannot know for certain, especially given that the dietary supplements were not even listed.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        Which OP said that? Can you link/quote them?
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  No, but he did offer up a possible explanation for the symptoms disappearing. That GP had changed diets and tried acupuncture may just be coincidental with the pollen running its course.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    He writes that he has had that over a decade. Maybe he would have noticed it himself that it was seasonal. I just don't like the tone when people have difficult problems, make an observation and get dismissed immediately because their observation doesn't fit with the mainstream. I started doing meditation and yoga before it was cool and whenever I mentioned that meditation seems to help with my depression and anxiety there were always plenty of smartasses telling me this is all bullshit. Now, 25 years later they suddenly start listening. There are plenty of bullshit alternative cures out there and it's good to question people. But pretending that the only cures that are valid are the ones from current mainstream medicine makes no sense. There is plenty of stuff out there mainstream medicine doesn't have a solution for and doesn't understand. In addition it has its own snake oil problems like unnecessary surgeries and feeding psychoactive substances to more and more people.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      > because their observation doesn't fit with the mainstream what do you mean by "mainstream"? Mainstream medicine? This isn't pop-music aesthetics, medicine is a profession, and seeking alternate treatments can do real harm. > I mentioned that meditation seems to help with my depression and anxiety This is dissimilar to things like allergies. It's also worth noting how many thing do turn out to be BS - your example might be survivor bias. > But pretending that the only cures that are valid Its one thing to consider alternativecures, it's another to promote them. Some alternate treatments can be harmful, so there should be a high barrier to recommendation. > There is plenty of stuff out there mainstream medicine doesn't have a solution Doesn't mean alternative medicine does though. The same argument is made for religion, called "god of the gaps".
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
- literallycancer 9y ago
  You definitely can. Sick and weakened people in particular, are not likely to provide reliable evidence - they really, really want to believe that this time, it's going to work, after all.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    I hope you will never have a difficult disease with diffuse symptoms and then be treated like that.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      Treated like what? Not humored with harmful thoughts? I think the real danger to life trumps ego.
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        Have you ever talked to someone with chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia or chronic pain? They constantly get dismissed and treated as if they were imagining things.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        Which is entirely different to dismissing Snake Oil, or alternative treatment. Also, how do you know this?
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        I know this because I have taught yoga classes for years. There you tend to meet a lot of people who have tried to find help for their health issues and try yoga as a last resort. Unfortunately yoga isn't a cure for lots of people either. But just listen to their stories. If you have something like autoimmune disease, chronic fatigue, undiagnosed Lyme's disease or other stuff a lot of people including medical professionals will accuse you of lying and pretending. This goes on while it's very clear that people are suffering. Some people are lucky that eventually they get diagnosed with something that's in the textbooks like Lyme's but a lot of them don't and their life is miserable. It's miserable because of suffering but also because they get treated like pretenders.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Of course you can. If somebody told you that they had a cold but that they cured it in only a week by applying banana peels to their eyelids and having a specialist apply precisely timed hammer blows to the top of their head, would you say, hmm, can't rule it out?
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    That's a ridiculous example.
    - sethrin 9y ago
      Yes, the form of argument would be called reductio ad absurdum.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      More ridiculous than declaring that you cured a seasonal allergy with food supplements and by sticking needles in your body?
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        Absolutely.
        mikeash 9y ago
        Why? Looks the same to me. Edit: just to clarify why they look the same to me: they're both applying "treatments" which have no particular basis to think they'd affect things, to a problem which naturally goes away over time, and then later attributing the disappearance of the problem to the "treatment" rather than to the passage of time.
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        I think it's pretty well established that food has an impact on one's health. So it seems a reasonable assumption that supplements can also have an impact. Comparing that to hammer blows just shows that you are not willing to have a reasonable discussion but want to kill the argument.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  They don't dismiss your experience, they dismiss your conclusion. poster doesn't claim to be in a position to judge, which is consistent with them not making any claims.
skrebbel 9y ago
Yes and the past five years the season started in March and ended in September, for me. I didn't move or anything like that, so i have no reason to assume the pollen have suddenly disappeared in May this year.
- mrunkel 9y ago
  Well, then you have a great opportunity for a control. Reverse some of the changes and see if your symptoms return. It should be pretty easy to determine what exactly made your symptoms disappear. "The only difference between science and just screwing around is writing it down." -- Mythbusters
  - skrebbel 9y ago
    Yep, it is. And even when I do that people on the internet will call me stupid for believing in non-evidence-based medicine.

maxxxxx 9y ago

"I really don't think you are in a position to judge that. " Neither are you. You can't just dismiss someone's experience as bullshit.

Retric 9y ago
They provided a completely rational explanation for what's going on. Simply waiting 4-8 weeks treats the vast majority of common issues. Either because they get better, the environment changes, or because the brain ends up ignoring repeated stimulus. Which is the secret to much of this stuff, they don't say just wait but because treatments are designed to take a while a significant number of people will make the association. PS: Some include useful diet changes and exercise, but people often ignore their doctors giving the same advice so YMMV.
- bmelton 9y ago
  A completely rational explanation that may or may not be the answer. If my car disappears from my garage, it may be because it was stolen, or maybe because it was transported to an alien planet by extra-terrestrial life forms. My assertion that it was E.T. does not mean that your counter-assertion that it was stolen is true. Maybe I lent it to a friend and forgot, or my wife took it to be pimped out on Overhaulin', or that it was repossessed due to some bank error. It's quite appropriate to raise additional possible explanations. It's quite inappropriate to tell someone that their treatment is in no way causative to the amelioration of symptoms, especially when they cannot know for certain that they were not.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    I'm note sure I follow your logic. Are you saying that if you can't give specific, alternative explanations for the missing car, we must consider aliens a plausible explanation?
    - bmelton 9y ago
      I'm saying that if you, a person who is probably not privy to the medical details of another random internet poster, cannot factually assert that dietary changes had nothing to do with his hay fever, then it is inappropriate to assert that it had nothing to do with his hay fever as fact. We know that there are foods that have medical benefit. There are foods that contain anti-histamine capabilities, for example, or decongestant capabilities that could have been positively impactful on hay fever. These may have been a part of OP's dietary supplements. Without knowing what the supplements were, we cannot dismiss that they might possibly have been of aid.
      - Retric 9y ago
        I never said it was the correct answer, but if you say the car was captured by aliens and I say it may have just been towed. The rational thing is to consider things in order of probability vs. risk not necessarily go with aliens every time. I mean sure it could have been stolen, or towed, or aliens, etc. But, the point is when what happens can have reasonable explanations it's not evidence for ET.
        bmelton 9y ago
        The OP I'm responding to said, specifically "The snake-oil has done nothing," which they cannot know for certain, especially given that the dietary supplements were not even listed.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        Which OP said that? Can you link/quote them?
jschwartzi 9y ago
No, but he did offer up a possible explanation for the symptoms disappearing. That GP had changed diets and tried acupuncture may just be coincidental with the pollen running its course.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  He writes that he has had that over a decade. Maybe he would have noticed it himself that it was seasonal. I just don't like the tone when people have difficult problems, make an observation and get dismissed immediately because their observation doesn't fit with the mainstream. I started doing meditation and yoga before it was cool and whenever I mentioned that meditation seems to help with my depression and anxiety there were always plenty of smartasses telling me this is all bullshit. Now, 25 years later they suddenly start listening. There are plenty of bullshit alternative cures out there and it's good to question people. But pretending that the only cures that are valid are the ones from current mainstream medicine makes no sense. There is plenty of stuff out there mainstream medicine doesn't have a solution for and doesn't understand. In addition it has its own snake oil problems like unnecessary surgeries and feeding psychoactive substances to more and more people.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    > because their observation doesn't fit with the mainstream what do you mean by "mainstream"? Mainstream medicine? This isn't pop-music aesthetics, medicine is a profession, and seeking alternate treatments can do real harm. > I mentioned that meditation seems to help with my depression and anxiety This is dissimilar to things like allergies. It's also worth noting how many thing do turn out to be BS - your example might be survivor bias. > But pretending that the only cures that are valid Its one thing to consider alternativecures, it's another to promote them. Some alternate treatments can be harmful, so there should be a high barrier to recommendation. > There is plenty of stuff out there mainstream medicine doesn't have a solution Doesn't mean alternative medicine does though. The same argument is made for religion, called "god of the gaps".
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
literallycancer 9y ago
You definitely can. Sick and weakened people in particular, are not likely to provide reliable evidence - they really, really want to believe that this time, it's going to work, after all.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I hope you will never have a difficult disease with diffuse symptoms and then be treated like that.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    Treated like what? Not humored with harmful thoughts? I think the real danger to life trumps ego.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      Have you ever talked to someone with chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia or chronic pain? They constantly get dismissed and treated as if they were imagining things.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        Which is entirely different to dismissing Snake Oil, or alternative treatment. Also, how do you know this?
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        I know this because I have taught yoga classes for years. There you tend to meet a lot of people who have tried to find help for their health issues and try yoga as a last resort. Unfortunately yoga isn't a cure for lots of people either. But just listen to their stories. If you have something like autoimmune disease, chronic fatigue, undiagnosed Lyme's disease or other stuff a lot of people including medical professionals will accuse you of lying and pretending. This goes on while it's very clear that people are suffering. Some people are lucky that eventually they get diagnosed with something that's in the textbooks like Lyme's but a lot of them don't and their life is miserable. It's miserable because of suffering but also because they get treated like pretenders.
mikeash 9y ago
Of course you can. If somebody told you that they had a cold but that they cured it in only a week by applying banana peels to their eyelids and having a specialist apply precisely timed hammer blows to the top of their head, would you say, hmm, can't rule it out?
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  That's a ridiculous example.
  - sethrin 9y ago
    Yes, the form of argument would be called reductio ad absurdum.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    More ridiculous than declaring that you cured a seasonal allergy with food supplements and by sticking needles in your body?
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      Absolutely.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Why? Looks the same to me. Edit: just to clarify why they look the same to me: they're both applying "treatments" which have no particular basis to think they'd affect things, to a problem which naturally goes away over time, and then later attributing the disappearance of the problem to the "treatment" rather than to the passage of time.
        maxxxxx 9y ago
        I think it's pretty well established that food has an impact on one's health. So it seems a reasonable assumption that supplements can also have an impact. Comparing that to hammer blows just shows that you are not willing to have a reasonable discussion but want to kill the argument.
Chris2048 9y ago
They don't dismiss your experience, they dismiss your conclusion. poster doesn't claim to be in a position to judge, which is consistent with them not making any claims.

skrebbel 9y ago

Yes and the past five years the season started in March and ended in September, for me. I didn't move or anything like that, so i have no reason to assume the pollen have suddenly disappeared in May this year.

mrunkel 9y ago
Well, then you have a great opportunity for a control. Reverse some of the changes and see if your symptoms return. It should be pretty easy to determine what exactly made your symptoms disappear. "The only difference between science and just screwing around is writing it down." -- Mythbusters
- skrebbel 9y ago
  Yep, it is. And even when I do that people on the internet will call me stupid for believing in non-evidence-based medicine.