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I understand this is unpopular on HN and I don't think this is the right approach either but what is the solution? Or do you think there's no problem at all? I

I understand this is unpopular on HN and I don't think this is the right approach either but what is the solution? Or do you think there's no problem at all? I think it is a potential problem where some young people don't realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts are not the norm and start dating thinking that is what you do instead of loving someone, that would cause them serious issues in developing relationships.

mherrmann 9y ago
I don't think anyone would confuse the sex acts in porn with love in the real world. You may be right about the expectations going into the first sexual relationships. But the youngsters find out soon enough that it's not normal what you see in porn when their spouses tell them they don't want to do these things. TL;DR: It's a non-problem
- easytiger 9y ago
  i don't like this but you are vastly underestimating the effect of pornography on people's psyche. Not everyone, indeed increasingly few, can be called well adjusted. Societal ills begotten by distance from our primal vestiges are definitely a future problem
- pmlnr 9y ago
  Yes, they do. Even Pornhub realised this: https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/02/pornhub-just-launched-a-sex-ed-portal-for-its-users/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/02/pornhub-just-launched-a-...
- salvar 9y ago
  Is this conclusion based on your gut feeling or something more substantial?
munin 9y ago
Maybe the way to counter that is with healthy, full throated and sex positive sex education? Instead of trying to bury or hide the "bad" information counter it with lots and lots of good information? Just a thought.
- ksangeelee 9y ago
  I can't think of any other way to address this problem. I increasingly lose control of what my children see as they get older and more independent. The crux of the problem is the "Check this out!" scenario with the kids who have smartphones, or unsupervised Internet access at home. I simply can't protect them from that. In addition to unabashed education, my focus will be on making sure they know how to put things into perspective; that shocking stuff they might see represents extremes of human behaviour, far removed from the world they know.
manmal 9y ago
My wife studied psychology recently, and yes, it's a huge problem. There really are teenagers who think that gang bangs are the norm, and that they have to participate. I thought she was joking when my wife told me some of the stories (case studies actually), but these things really happen if you get exposed to this when really young, and nobody bothers to correct your views.
- vacri 9y ago
  And then you have the flip side of the coin, where you find a German couple who were so uneducated about sex that they'd been together for more than half a decade without having kids, went to the doctor for help... whereupon it was found that they never had sex. An extreme case, yes, but illustrative. The norms of today might not be the best, but the norms of yesteryear were also pretty fucked-up. Age verification on sites is going to do squat in terms of changing young adult mindsets.
- jaimebuelta 9y ago
  I'm sure those cases exist, but most likely are not the norm. Almost everyone understands that action movies are not how things work in real life, though is true that influences us to a certain degree. I think that the solution should be more acknowledge that fact (fiction is not real, and that's ok) and build from there. If we pretend people to have as only source of information the movies, we'll have a problem.
  - manmal 9y ago
    I don't have the numbers ready, but neither do you.
- aloisdg 9y ago
  What they need is more/better sex education course.
- wvh 9y ago
  But this is not pornography-specific. This applies just as well to views about healthy relationships, self respect, food consumption, alcohol and drug use, financial discipline, world views and whatnot. Teens need to be educated so they can form an informed and nuanced view of the world. Not sure you should ban all teens from McDonalds because some parents can't get the message across that fast-food is unhealthy. In other words, is the main problem here that gangbang videos exist or that some kids get a really shitty upbringing that leaves them full of gaping holes, incapable of handling life or making wise decisions? The point I'm trying to make is that people are shifting the responsibility and consequently limiting freedom and varied views for all, like the ban on "gay propaganda" in Russia or "facesitting" pornography in the UK. It's the wrong solution to a (I assume for some) real problem.
raesene6 9y ago
I'd say there is no perfect solution however there are much better approaches. 1) Parents should discuss sexuality issues with their children, so they understand them. 2) Schools should provide good sex education that isn't "if you play with it, it'll fall off" 3) If parents or schools want to block easy access to inappropriate materials on their networks, use one of the many many existing blacklist blocking programs available. No need for legislation to do that.
smegel 9y ago
Parental supervision. This is no solution as kids will always find other ways to share and access porn as they have since well before the days of the internet or computers.
DerpyBaby123 9y ago
Sorry, please define what you see the problem as. Is there any evidence for this problem, for example in medical journals?
onion2k 9y ago
some young people don't realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts are not the norm and start dating thinking that is what you do instead of loving someone Banning porn doesn't even begin to address that problem. People talk. They boast about what they do, and the more naive people go ahead and do those things too because they believe that's what they should be doing. That's true in everything, not just sex. The answer is to educate people to make their own decisions, and have the understanding, knowledge and empowerment to know they can say no if they don't want to do a particular thing. Extreme sex acts existed before the internet. Hiding it won't make it go away. "Security through obscurity" doesn't work.
- booleandilemma 9y ago
  People talk. They boast about what they do, and the more naive people go ahead and do those things too because they believe that's what they should be doing. This happens to be why my company is using a NoSQL database in one of its new projects.
  - OJFord 9y ago
    I hope you verified the interns' ages.
MichaelBurge 9y ago
Parents can buy internet filtering software such as Net Nanny and install it on all the family computers. That does leave open the possibility that some children would be exposed to "extreme sex acts", and this would probably disproportionately affect the poor. The government providing free voluntary filtering software would probably irk people less than the government policing morals.
- IanCal 9y ago
  > The government providing free voluntary filtering software would probably irk people less than the government policing morals. This already exists, really. With the major providers, you get asked if you want filters turned on or off.
icebraining 9y ago
Thing is, do you really think teenagers will stop accessing porn? No; they'll just pirate it rather than access the free sites. A solution that imposes costs but doesn't actually solve the problem is worse than doing nothing.
tombh 9y ago
I think it's clear that this is purely political. If the government truly had sexual health in mind then blatant sexualised advertising on the streets would be part of the conversation.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
... some young people don't realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts are not the norm and start dating thinking that is what you do instead of loving someone, that would cause them serious issues in developing relationships." To be fair, without porn lots of folks wouldn't know what was normal anyway - so it is easy to talk folks into something. All it takes is the more persuasive person to have these things in mind (and obviously folks do, considering this sort of porn isn't new to the internet). The same problem happens when discussing abusive relationships. Young folks don't know what normal and healthy contains. The big thing that is missing in the US is comprehensive sex and relationship education. I don't see a problem with teaching kids about film making so they can understand that a porn shoot is set up to look good for the camera or be other-worldly. I don't see a problem telling young folks they can try some of the stuff out, with the caveat of respecting everyone's health and comfort while doing it. I don't mind telling folks it is OK to be into - or not into - something. And to be fair, I'm not sure most folks do this stuff instead of loving someone, rather as part of the course of loving someone. I'm pretty sure my sex life with my spouse mirrors average porn more closely than the whole "making love" thing.
godzilla82 9y ago
I hate this attitude you have towards "some young people". Are we supposed to assume that you have sufficiently grown up just because you make this comment? If not, you dont have any right to judge others. Now coming back to your question, if both consenting adults think that "some fairly disgusting .... acts" are the norm, when who are you to say other wise. In case one of the adults doesnt thinks so, they can move out of the relationship. If the society forces them somehow to stay together inspite of one of them wanting to move out, then you have arrived at a problem that you can try to solve.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Who said anything about "adults"? This topic is about access by minors. (Not that I agree with the plan, mind you.)
Rjevski 9y ago
Is most porn actually disgusting and extreme? Most of what you would stumble upon on the "tube" is pretty tame, so unless you're specifically looking for extreme/disgusting you're not likely to find something "extreme". Have there even been evidence on how porn actually hurts people at a large scale? I'd love to see that evidence.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jonathanstrange 9y ago
I think there is no problem at all.
wvh 9y ago
I'm of that age that my first relationship experiences happened just before I had access the internet and pornography. I can guarantee you that as a horny teen I did not need the internet to come up with "fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts". Neither did I have the impression that girls would readily agree with sex, let alone kinkier acts – as an average teenage boy, you're well aware the answer is more often "no" than "yes". (I'm not a gamer, but I assume this debate has a lot in common with the debate about violent computer games.) I understand different people have different views on censorship. In my opinion it is a lot more important to raise children – boys and girls – with a healthy and balanced view of sexuality, and teach especially girls to demand respect for their own sexual needs and not let horny guys waltz all over. The other problem is that by letting governments regulate more and more of the internet, we are giving up the freedom the medium provides to all of us. Again, some might prefer to live in a curated bubble, but I prefer to see the world as-is with its raw edges and myriad of opinions, and it would be nice if teens would be raised to be strong and decide for themselves what is acceptable and when to close the browser window rather than letting the authorities decide what views are acceptable.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
forgottenpass 9y ago
If our actual goal is well-adjusted youth, we've got a lot bigger fish to fry than porno. Porn is paradoxically minor. Most people are familiar with the arguments about the negative effects of porn (even if they don't believe the arguments), and reflects the way society already has a paranoid always-on-guard attitude towards porn. We have first-pass mental filters regarding porn. If anything deserves to be made harder to access for it's negative repercussions, the prime targets are those we haven't yet (or can't) built mental filters against. I won't even bother reiterating all the well known and widely accepted reasons half-baked social interventions are destined to fail, and likley make things worse. I don't think this is the right approach either but what is the solution? Maybe work on making a society that isn't outright terrified of sex? There will never be an adult conversation with the youth about sex until adults can have an adult conversation among themselves.
rimliu 9y ago
All can see movies on TV. Does that make kids not realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme violent acts are not the norm? What about the Bible? I'd argue that some acts (note necessarily sexual) here can be described as fairly disgusting and extreme.

mherrmann 9y ago

I don't think anyone would confuse the sex acts in porn with love in the real world. You may be right about the expectations going into the first sexual relationships. But the youngsters find out soon enough that it's not normal what you see in porn when their spouses tell them they don't want to do these things. TL;DR: It's a non-problem

easytiger 9y ago
i don't like this but you are vastly underestimating the effect of pornography on people's psyche. Not everyone, indeed increasingly few, can be called well adjusted. Societal ills begotten by distance from our primal vestiges are definitely a future problem
pmlnr 9y ago
Yes, they do. Even Pornhub realised this: https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/02/pornhub-just-launched-a-sex-ed-portal-for-its-users/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/02/pornhub-just-launched-a-...
salvar 9y ago
Is this conclusion based on your gut feeling or something more substantial?

munin 9y ago

Maybe the way to counter that is with healthy, full throated and sex positive sex education? Instead of trying to bury or hide the "bad" information counter it with lots and lots of good information? Just a thought.

ksangeelee 9y ago
I can't think of any other way to address this problem. I increasingly lose control of what my children see as they get older and more independent. The crux of the problem is the "Check this out!" scenario with the kids who have smartphones, or unsupervised Internet access at home. I simply can't protect them from that. In addition to unabashed education, my focus will be on making sure they know how to put things into perspective; that shocking stuff they might see represents extremes of human behaviour, far removed from the world they know.

manmal 9y ago

My wife studied psychology recently, and yes, it's a huge problem. There really are teenagers who think that gang bangs are the norm, and that they have to participate. I thought she was joking when my wife told me some of the stories (case studies actually), but these things really happen if you get exposed to this when really young, and nobody bothers to correct your views.

vacri 9y ago
And then you have the flip side of the coin, where you find a German couple who were so uneducated about sex that they'd been together for more than half a decade without having kids, went to the doctor for help... whereupon it was found that they never had sex. An extreme case, yes, but illustrative. The norms of today might not be the best, but the norms of yesteryear were also pretty fucked-up. Age verification on sites is going to do squat in terms of changing young adult mindsets.
jaimebuelta 9y ago
I'm sure those cases exist, but most likely are not the norm. Almost everyone understands that action movies are not how things work in real life, though is true that influences us to a certain degree. I think that the solution should be more acknowledge that fact (fiction is not real, and that's ok) and build from there. If we pretend people to have as only source of information the movies, we'll have a problem.
- manmal 9y ago
  I don't have the numbers ready, but neither do you.
aloisdg 9y ago
What they need is more/better sex education course.
wvh 9y ago
But this is not pornography-specific. This applies just as well to views about healthy relationships, self respect, food consumption, alcohol and drug use, financial discipline, world views and whatnot. Teens need to be educated so they can form an informed and nuanced view of the world. Not sure you should ban all teens from McDonalds because some parents can't get the message across that fast-food is unhealthy. In other words, is the main problem here that gangbang videos exist or that some kids get a really shitty upbringing that leaves them full of gaping holes, incapable of handling life or making wise decisions? The point I'm trying to make is that people are shifting the responsibility and consequently limiting freedom and varied views for all, like the ban on "gay propaganda" in Russia or "facesitting" pornography in the UK. It's the wrong solution to a (I assume for some) real problem.

raesene6 9y ago

I'd say there is no perfect solution however there are much better approaches. 1) Parents should discuss sexuality issues with their children, so they understand them. 2) Schools should provide good sex education that isn't "if you play with it, it'll fall off" 3) If parents or schools want to block easy access to inappropriate materials on their networks, use one of the many many existing blacklist blocking programs available. No need for legislation to do that.

smegel 9y ago

Parental supervision. This is no solution as kids will always find other ways to share and access porn as they have since well before the days of the internet or computers.

DerpyBaby123 9y ago

Sorry, please define what you see the problem as. Is there any evidence for this problem, for example in medical journals?

onion2k 9y ago

some young people don't realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts are not the norm and start dating thinking that is what you do instead of loving someone Banning porn doesn't even begin to address that problem. People talk. They boast about what they do, and the more naive people go ahead and do those things too because they believe that's what they should be doing. That's true in everything, not just sex. The answer is to educate people to make their own decisions, and have the understanding, knowledge and empowerment to know they can say no if they don't want to do a particular thing. Extreme sex acts existed before the internet. Hiding it won't make it go away. "Security through obscurity" doesn't work.

booleandilemma 9y ago
People talk. They boast about what they do, and the more naive people go ahead and do those things too because they believe that's what they should be doing. This happens to be why my company is using a NoSQL database in one of its new projects.
- OJFord 9y ago
  I hope you verified the interns' ages.

MichaelBurge 9y ago

Parents can buy internet filtering software such as Net Nanny and install it on all the family computers. That does leave open the possibility that some children would be exposed to "extreme sex acts", and this would probably disproportionately affect the poor. The government providing free voluntary filtering software would probably irk people less than the government policing morals.

IanCal 9y ago
> The government providing free voluntary filtering software would probably irk people less than the government policing morals. This already exists, really. With the major providers, you get asked if you want filters turned on or off.

icebraining 9y ago

Thing is, do you really think teenagers will stop accessing porn? No; they'll just pirate it rather than access the free sites. A solution that imposes costs but doesn't actually solve the problem is worse than doing nothing.

tombh 9y ago

I think it's clear that this is purely political. If the government truly had sexual health in mind then blatant sexualised advertising on the streets would be part of the conversation.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

... some young people don't realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts are not the norm and start dating thinking that is what you do instead of loving someone, that would cause them serious issues in developing relationships." To be fair, without porn lots of folks wouldn't know what was normal anyway - so it is easy to talk folks into something. All it takes is the more persuasive person to have these things in mind (and obviously folks do, considering this sort of porn isn't new to the internet). The same problem happens when discussing abusive relationships. Young folks don't know what normal and healthy contains. The big thing that is missing in the US is comprehensive sex and relationship education. I don't see a problem with teaching kids about film making so they can understand that a porn shoot is set up to look good for the camera or be other-worldly. I don't see a problem telling young folks they can try some of the stuff out, with the caveat of respecting everyone's health and comfort while doing it. I don't mind telling folks it is OK to be into - or not into - something. And to be fair, I'm not sure most folks do this stuff instead of loving someone, rather as part of the course of loving someone. I'm pretty sure my sex life with my spouse mirrors average porn more closely than the whole "making love" thing.

godzilla82 9y ago

I hate this attitude you have towards "some young people". Are we supposed to assume that you have sufficiently grown up just because you make this comment? If not, you dont have any right to judge others. Now coming back to your question, if both consenting adults think that "some fairly disgusting .... acts" are the norm, when who are you to say other wise. In case one of the adults doesnt thinks so, they can move out of the relationship. If the society forces them somehow to stay together inspite of one of them wanting to move out, then you have arrived at a problem that you can try to solve.

icebraining 9y ago
Who said anything about "adults"? This topic is about access by minors. (Not that I agree with the plan, mind you.)

Rjevski 9y ago

Is most porn actually disgusting and extreme? Most of what you would stumble upon on the "tube" is pretty tame, so unless you're specifically looking for extreme/disgusting you're not likely to find something "extreme". Have there even been evidence on how porn actually hurts people at a large scale? I'd love to see that evidence.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jonathanstrange 9y ago

I think there is no problem at all.

wvh 9y ago

I'm of that age that my first relationship experiences happened just before I had access the internet and pornography. I can guarantee you that as a horny teen I did not need the internet to come up with "fairly disgusting and extreme sex acts". Neither did I have the impression that girls would readily agree with sex, let alone kinkier acts – as an average teenage boy, you're well aware the answer is more often "no" than "yes". (I'm not a gamer, but I assume this debate has a lot in common with the debate about violent computer games.) I understand different people have different views on censorship. In my opinion it is a lot more important to raise children – boys and girls – with a healthy and balanced view of sexuality, and teach especially girls to demand respect for their own sexual needs and not let horny guys waltz all over. The other problem is that by letting governments regulate more and more of the internet, we are giving up the freedom the medium provides to all of us. Again, some might prefer to live in a curated bubble, but I prefer to see the world as-is with its raw edges and myriad of opinions, and it would be nice if teens would be raised to be strong and decide for themselves what is acceptable and when to close the browser window rather than letting the authorities decide what views are acceptable.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

forgottenpass 9y ago

If our actual goal is well-adjusted youth, we've got a lot bigger fish to fry than porno. Porn is paradoxically minor. Most people are familiar with the arguments about the negative effects of porn (even if they don't believe the arguments), and reflects the way society already has a paranoid always-on-guard attitude towards porn. We have first-pass mental filters regarding porn. If anything deserves to be made harder to access for it's negative repercussions, the prime targets are those we haven't yet (or can't) built mental filters against. I won't even bother reiterating all the well known and widely accepted reasons half-baked social interventions are destined to fail, and likley make things worse. I don't think this is the right approach either but what is the solution? Maybe work on making a society that isn't outright terrified of sex? There will never be an adult conversation with the youth about sex until adults can have an adult conversation among themselves.

rimliu 9y ago

All can see movies on TV. Does that make kids not realize that some fairly disgusting and extreme violent acts are not the norm? What about the Bible? I'd argue that some acts (note necessarily sexual) here can be described as fairly disgusting and extreme.