4 ms·

Seeing ads don't brainwash you. Seeing ads that are targeted to you based on the content you consume and your browsing patterns brainwashes you.

seanwilson 9y ago
> Seeing ads don't brainwash you. Seeing ads that are targeted to you based on the content you consume and your browsing patterns brainwashes you. I know to be extra skeptical of claims in ads and to do proper research before I buy things. Friends and family give recommendations all the time which I apply critical thinking skills to as well...I don't just blindly do things people suggest to me. Have you honestly ever felt you've been brainwashed by ads somehow?
- blub 9y ago
  This is an extremely naive point of view. Advertising influences purchasing behaviour and feelings about particular brands. You can apply critical thinking skills left, right, up, down and sideways, it won't matter if you're flooded with ads for Samsung. And if you somehow figure out that Samsung's products have a tendency to catch fire, Coca Cola will get you. And if you figure out that Coke is sugary crap, one of the other tens of thousands of products will get you. Because you're probably not applying critical thinking skills to pick your toilet paper, detergent, dog food, toothbrushes, light bulbs and so on and you're not doing that non stop. People that think they're immune to advertising are ironically the easiest to influence, like fish in a barrel.
  - rosser 9y ago
    The far more insidious part of (some) advertising is how it makes "consumers" feel about themselves. Poke that little nugget of self-doubt someone carries (because we all do), and then tell them you have just the thing to make it better. You don't even have to be explicit about it; just show them people onto whom they can project not suffering that doubt, and associate those people, and the fantasy of feeling that way too, with your product. Cha-ching! EDIT: phrasing.
  - seanwilson 9y ago
    > And if you somehow figure out that Samsung's products have a tendency to catch fire, Coca Cola will get you. And if you figure out that Coke is sugary crap, one of the other tens of thousands of products will get you. Will get you in what way? Is a soft drink purchase really that important? > Because you're probably not applying critical thinking skills to pick your toilet paper, detergent, dog food, toothbrushes, light bulbs and so on and you're not doing that non stop. I read customer reviews, industry reviews, nutrition information, cost per volume etc. for important purchases. Is it really a huge deal that you might buy one similarly priced soft drink over another because you're more aware of the brand? I'm not saying I'm completely immune to some amount of influence but good ads and brand awareness is not going to make me spend a lot more money than I would have done otherwise.
    - blub 9y ago
      I think you need a lot of info to get up to speed and unfortunately I don't have much time. I'll make sure to find references for future discussions, but for now I think we'll have to stop here.
  - piyush_soni 9y ago
    Looks like a lot of HNers hate the concept of advertizing itself. Yet, everyday we have a few articles titled "Show HN" doing exactly the same (they can similarly brainwash you, no?)
    - majewsky 9y ago
      "Show HN" is more like a store display. It describes that something is available. Also, front page space is won by upvotes, not sold to the highest bidder (or so I hope).
      - piyush_soni 9y ago
        Isn't a lot of advertising about the same? (e.g. Our new 'improved' product is now available). So if a lot of new product showcases are stopped, how will people know something's available? In any case, you (by which I mean a general HN reader) are not paying anything to read the articles, so you are the product here too then? So the 'Show HN' are evil too. They can brainwash you to believe <xyz>.js is much better than <abc>.js, even when it's not.
        seanwilson 9y ago
        Completely agree with your point. The "Show HN" descriptions, their landing pages, their documentation, their logos etc. are no different from advertising in terms of trying to influence you into trying something out.
        larkery 9y ago
        I think that "no different" is a stretch here. The way you choose to communicate with someone to achieve an end is important in itself. For a hyperbolic example, imagine you had a partner who wanted you to lose weight because you'd got fat and found you unattractive as a result. They choose speak kindly to you about how they feel to see whether they can change your behaviour, and own the possibility that you're not interested in what they have to say. Is this <em>no different</em> to them using some subtly crafted speech (based on their in-depth knowledge of your insecurities, etc.) which creates some shame or self-doubt, whilst not making their real position or motive clear? Or equally, one of your children's friends wants them to try a new legal high; in case (a) they describe how they find it and what it's like, and in case (b) they use some social pressure about how everyone's into it and it looks cool, etc. Or you go to your doctor, and she offers you a new drug for your ailment; in the first case she describes the evidence base for it and any potential down-sides in statistical terms you can easily appreciate. In the second, she conjures an image of your ailment worsening progressively until you are a drag on your family and you die resented and alone; this is a possible but unlikely outcome if you leave the ailment untreated. In all these examples the two paths are no different in terms of someone trying to influence someone into trying something out, but most people would find the first options preferable to the latter. I think the point is not that all attempts to change someone's mind are manipulation and so completely morally equal, but that some kinds of manipulation are hurtful in themselves either because they are deceptive or because they hurt people. A show HN post may be trying to manipulate you, but hopefully it is not using deceit or an emotional over-reach to do that.
  - Treblemaker 9y ago
    Not everyone chooses products based on their feelings. In fact, I often find it quite difficult to find basic products such as the ones you list because what I want is not available among the popular, advertised brands. Take a heavily advertised staple such as peanut butter for example. How I feel about a brand has zero influence on my selection. And no amount of advertising will change that because there is exactly one brand available in my area which has the combination of features that I want (no-stir, un-sweetened and lightly-salted), so that is the one I buy. I could give examples of other basics like hand soap, toothpaste and paper goods that I choose because competing products failed to meet my needs, not because I "feel good about the brand". "People that think they're immune to advertising are ironically the easiest to influence". I would be interested to know on what you base this claim, and does it differentiate between mere "belief" that one is immune, and the conscious intent to recognize and reject the explicit and implicit messages in advertising.
AlexandrB 9y ago
Even before the age of targeting, marketing had been very successful at creating demand out of whole cloth by changing the norms of an entire culture. See diamonds[1] and deodorant[2]. If this is not brainwashing, I don't know what is - and I bet you put on deodorant every morning like the rest of us. [1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/fashion/weddings/how-americans-learned-to-love-diamonds.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/fashion/weddings/how-a... [2] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-advertisers-convinced-americans-they-smelled-bad-12552404/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-advertisers-convin...

seanwilson 9y ago

> Seeing ads don't brainwash you. Seeing ads that are targeted to you based on the content you consume and your browsing patterns brainwashes you. I know to be extra skeptical of claims in ads and to do proper research before I buy things. Friends and family give recommendations all the time which I apply critical thinking skills to as well...I don't just blindly do things people suggest to me. Have you honestly ever felt you've been brainwashed by ads somehow?

blub 9y ago
This is an extremely naive point of view. Advertising influences purchasing behaviour and feelings about particular brands. You can apply critical thinking skills left, right, up, down and sideways, it won't matter if you're flooded with ads for Samsung. And if you somehow figure out that Samsung's products have a tendency to catch fire, Coca Cola will get you. And if you figure out that Coke is sugary crap, one of the other tens of thousands of products will get you. Because you're probably not applying critical thinking skills to pick your toilet paper, detergent, dog food, toothbrushes, light bulbs and so on and you're not doing that non stop. People that think they're immune to advertising are ironically the easiest to influence, like fish in a barrel.
- rosser 9y ago
  The far more insidious part of (some) advertising is how it makes "consumers" feel about themselves. Poke that little nugget of self-doubt someone carries (because we all do), and then tell them you have just the thing to make it better. You don't even have to be explicit about it; just show them people onto whom they can project not suffering that doubt, and associate those people, and the fantasy of feeling that way too, with your product. Cha-ching! EDIT: phrasing.
- seanwilson 9y ago
  > And if you somehow figure out that Samsung's products have a tendency to catch fire, Coca Cola will get you. And if you figure out that Coke is sugary crap, one of the other tens of thousands of products will get you. Will get you in what way? Is a soft drink purchase really that important? > Because you're probably not applying critical thinking skills to pick your toilet paper, detergent, dog food, toothbrushes, light bulbs and so on and you're not doing that non stop. I read customer reviews, industry reviews, nutrition information, cost per volume etc. for important purchases. Is it really a huge deal that you might buy one similarly priced soft drink over another because you're more aware of the brand? I'm not saying I'm completely immune to some amount of influence but good ads and brand awareness is not going to make me spend a lot more money than I would have done otherwise.
  - blub 9y ago
    I think you need a lot of info to get up to speed and unfortunately I don't have much time. I'll make sure to find references for future discussions, but for now I think we'll have to stop here.
- piyush_soni 9y ago
  Looks like a lot of HNers hate the concept of advertizing itself. Yet, everyday we have a few articles titled "Show HN" doing exactly the same (they can similarly brainwash you, no?)
  - majewsky 9y ago
    "Show HN" is more like a store display. It describes that something is available. Also, front page space is won by upvotes, not sold to the highest bidder (or so I hope).
    - piyush_soni 9y ago
      Isn't a lot of advertising about the same? (e.g. Our new 'improved' product is now available). So if a lot of new product showcases are stopped, how will people know something's available? In any case, you (by which I mean a general HN reader) are not paying anything to read the articles, so you are the product here too then? So the 'Show HN' are evil too. They can brainwash you to believe <xyz>.js is much better than <abc>.js, even when it's not.
      - seanwilson 9y ago
        Completely agree with your point. The "Show HN" descriptions, their landing pages, their documentation, their logos etc. are no different from advertising in terms of trying to influence you into trying something out.
        larkery 9y ago
        I think that "no different" is a stretch here. The way you choose to communicate with someone to achieve an end is important in itself. For a hyperbolic example, imagine you had a partner who wanted you to lose weight because you'd got fat and found you unattractive as a result. They choose speak kindly to you about how they feel to see whether they can change your behaviour, and own the possibility that you're not interested in what they have to say. Is this <em>no different</em> to them using some subtly crafted speech (based on their in-depth knowledge of your insecurities, etc.) which creates some shame or self-doubt, whilst not making their real position or motive clear? Or equally, one of your children's friends wants them to try a new legal high; in case (a) they describe how they find it and what it's like, and in case (b) they use some social pressure about how everyone's into it and it looks cool, etc. Or you go to your doctor, and she offers you a new drug for your ailment; in the first case she describes the evidence base for it and any potential down-sides in statistical terms you can easily appreciate. In the second, she conjures an image of your ailment worsening progressively until you are a drag on your family and you die resented and alone; this is a possible but unlikely outcome if you leave the ailment untreated. In all these examples the two paths are no different in terms of someone trying to influence someone into trying something out, but most people would find the first options preferable to the latter. I think the point is not that all attempts to change someone's mind are manipulation and so completely morally equal, but that some kinds of manipulation are hurtful in themselves either because they are deceptive or because they hurt people. A show HN post may be trying to manipulate you, but hopefully it is not using deceit or an emotional over-reach to do that.
- Treblemaker 9y ago
  Not everyone chooses products based on their feelings. In fact, I often find it quite difficult to find basic products such as the ones you list because what I want is not available among the popular, advertised brands. Take a heavily advertised staple such as peanut butter for example. How I feel about a brand has zero influence on my selection. And no amount of advertising will change that because there is exactly one brand available in my area which has the combination of features that I want (no-stir, un-sweetened and lightly-salted), so that is the one I buy. I could give examples of other basics like hand soap, toothpaste and paper goods that I choose because competing products failed to meet my needs, not because I "feel good about the brand". "People that think they're immune to advertising are ironically the easiest to influence". I would be interested to know on what you base this claim, and does it differentiate between mere "belief" that one is immune, and the conscious intent to recognize and reject the explicit and implicit messages in advertising.

AlexandrB 9y ago

Even before the age of targeting, marketing had been very successful at creating demand out of whole cloth by changing the norms of an entire culture. See diamonds[1] and deodorant[2]. If this is not brainwashing, I don't know what is - and I bet you put on deodorant every morning like the rest of us. [1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/fashion/weddings/how-americans-learned-to-love-diamonds.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/fashion/weddings/how-a... [2] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-advertisers-convinced-americans-they-smelled-bad-12552404/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-advertisers-convin...