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1) No there is no other way. (An alternative, proof-of-stake, is still an active research area. Even Ethereum abandoned the idea of completely switching away fr

by mrb 9y ago

1) No there is no other way. (An alternative, proof-of-stake, is still an active research area. Even Ethereum abandoned the idea of completely switching away from proof-of-work because they realized PoS isn't completely workable.) 2) Because a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system has the potential to truly improve society, hence worth spending energy on it. I have presented multiple arguments why (Bitcoin) mining is not wasteful here: http://blog.zorinaq.com/bitcoin-mining-is-not-wasteful/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/bitcoin-mining-is-not-wasteful/

Jabanga 9y ago
>Even Ethereum abandoned the idea of completely switching away from proof-of-work because they realized PoS isn't completely workable No it didn't. I follow Ethereum development closely and I know for a fact that's absolutely untrue. I'm not sure why you're misleading people about this.
- Evelyn533 9y ago
  @Loise, you make $27h...good for you! I make up to $85h working from home. My story is that I quit working at shoprite to work online and with a little effort I easily bring in around $45h to $85h…heres a good example of what i'm doing, ----------------->>http://mcaf.ee/4ngo1k http://mcaf.ee/4ngo1k
- fghtr 9y ago
  But you both did not give any links...
- gus_massa 9y ago
  I think they didn't abandon the idea, but until they have a working prototype it's just a idea. Nobody is sure if it's possible to use in the real word, were many people will try to steal a few million dollars if they can.
- mrb 9y ago
  You are right, I should have said "temporarily" not "completely". They abandoned the idea of switching to 100% PoS right away, and instead are trying to work on a hybrid PoS/PoW. Source: https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/851503370250661889 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/851503370250661889 (100% PoS remains the ideal goal, but they have been unable to work it out yet)
trophycase 9y ago
They most definitely have not abandoned Proof of Stake
dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
It would be true in an ideal world, but in practice governments of different countries can and do regulate what can and cannot be done with bitcoins. Most of this is based on fear of losing control.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > in practice governments of different countries can and do regulate what can and cannot be done with bitcoins. Most of this is based on fear of losing control. Most of the time people seem to say as if that was a bad thing. But consider what happens when government does ultimately lose control. You get Somalia. As it is today, it seems governments worldwide agree cryptocurrencies are overhyped. They all seem to be saying basically: "it's cool you're having fun with new Internet points; just don't forget to fill in your tax form".
lightedman 9y ago
You haven't done your research, because ETH did not abandon PoS, and permission-less distributed databases have existed since the 70s and failed then for the same reason all these will fail now - you simply cannot scale and keep it distributed, it all ends up getting centralized to a few key points because of the cost to maintain the exponentially-growing distributed infrastructure.
dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
I read your arguments and unfortunately most don't hold water. > 1. Miners currently use approximately only 0.0012% of the energy consumed by the world. This doesn't change the fact that you're using energy. The second argument is basically the same, just extrapolating into the future. > 3. Mining would be a waste if there was another more efficient way to implement a Bitcoin-like currency without proof-of-work. This is a logical fallacy. Mining means wasting energy regardless if there are other ways of producing digital currencies or not. Now, this one is actually interesting: > 4. Bitcoin is already a net benefit to the economy. Venture capitalists invested more than $1 billion into at least 729 Bitcoin companies which created thousands of jobs. You may disregard the first three arguments, but the bottom line is that spending an estimated 150 megawatt in a system that so far created thousands of jobs is a valuable economic move, not a waste. This example is a bit special because the jobs haven't been created by BCs themselves but by VCs spending their own money into BC-related companies. I just hope most of these aren't BC mines, otherwise we'd have a vicious circle here... >5. The energy cost per transaction is currently declining thanks to the transaction rate increasing faster than the network's energy consumption. Again: this kind of argument is of "it's not as bad as it sounds" type, and does nothing to refute the claim that mining is wasteful.
- a_imho 9y ago
  1. Miners currently use approximately only 0.0012% of the energy consumed by the world. Actually if that number is accurate, is quite shocking.
  - aerique 9y ago
    I assume you mean shockingly high?
    - a_imho 9y ago
      Indeed, though I have to admit I do not really pay attention to crypto currencies.
  - Sholmesy 9y ago
ckastner 9y ago
> 2) Because a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system has the potential to truly improve society, hence worth spending energy on it. The other side of the coin: a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system also re-introduces a substantial set of significant problems that societies have already long solved for themselves.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  In the words of Scott Alexander: "People are using the contingent stupidity of our current government to replace lots of human interaction with mechanisms that cannot be coordinated even in principle. I totally understand why all these things are good right now when most of what our government does is stupid and unnecessary. But there is going to come a time when – after one too many bioweapon or nanotech or nuclear incidents – we, as a civilization, are going to wish we hadn’t established untraceable and unstoppable ways of selling products." http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
  - CyberDildonics 9y ago
    Predicting a future of devestation. You would think we would be past buying into that ruse by now.
    - ExcilSploft 9y ago
      Is it that far fetched? Right now most disk encrypting ransomware demands bitcoin for decryption.
      - CyberDildonics 9y ago
        Are biological weapons being used to mass murder people a natural extrapolation of ransomware?
        9y ago
walterstucco 9y ago
> a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system has the potential to truly improve society It is dependent on a huge amount of cheap energy I wouldn't call it censorship resistant yet Raise the cost of the energy and only the ones with deep pockets can decide what is true
- chillingeffect 9y ago
  This comment led me to compare crypto mining with the American Gold Rush in the 1800s. An intriguing difference might at least some miners struck it big due after finding huge geographical deposits of gold. In cryptocoins, though, the flatter distribution of the space means people tend to get out what they put in.
legulere 9y ago
How are bitcoin and ethereum censorship-less and permission-less? Most cubans for instance don't have access to the internet without a permission. China could shut down the bitcoin easily by simply blocking bitcoin traffic.
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  Is a USB drive really plug and play if it doesn't even work on my 20 year old flip phone? Why would you conflate two separate systems like that?
Nursie 9y ago
>> No there is no other way. There are various other ways, however many of them ditch the decentralised-trust nature of cryptocurrency. If this is not something important to you (which it isn't to that many people) then crypto-currency represents a huge waste of power for no appreciable gain.
DiThi 9y ago
PoS is perfectly workable, but one wouldn't switch overnight for a myriad of reasons. Ethereum will eventually be PoS for sure. There's also systems without "mining" like iota, which has every sender verify other two transactions, so it's very scalable and has no fees. The drawback is that having no mining, all tokens were created on genesis.

by mrb 9y ago

Jabanga 9y ago

>Even Ethereum abandoned the idea of completely switching away from proof-of-work because they realized PoS isn't completely workable No it didn't. I follow Ethereum development closely and I know for a fact that's absolutely untrue. I'm not sure why you're misleading people about this.

Evelyn533 9y ago
@Loise, you make $27h...good for you! I make up to $85h working from home. My story is that I quit working at shoprite to work online and with a little effort I easily bring in around $45h to $85h…heres a good example of what i'm doing, ----------------->>http://mcaf.ee/4ngo1k http://mcaf.ee/4ngo1k
fghtr 9y ago
But you both did not give any links...
gus_massa 9y ago
I think they didn't abandon the idea, but until they have a working prototype it's just a idea. Nobody is sure if it's possible to use in the real word, were many people will try to steal a few million dollars if they can.
mrb 9y ago
You are right, I should have said "temporarily" not "completely". They abandoned the idea of switching to 100% PoS right away, and instead are trying to work on a hybrid PoS/PoW. Source: https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/851503370250661889 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/851503370250661889 (100% PoS remains the ideal goal, but they have been unable to work it out yet)

trophycase 9y ago

They most definitely have not abandoned Proof of Stake

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago

It would be true in an ideal world, but in practice governments of different countries can and do regulate what can and cannot be done with bitcoins. Most of this is based on fear of losing control.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
> in practice governments of different countries can and do regulate what can and cannot be done with bitcoins. Most of this is based on fear of losing control. Most of the time people seem to say as if that was a bad thing. But consider what happens when government does ultimately lose control. You get Somalia. As it is today, it seems governments worldwide agree cryptocurrencies are overhyped. They all seem to be saying basically: "it's cool you're having fun with new Internet points; just don't forget to fill in your tax form".

lightedman 9y ago

You haven't done your research, because ETH did not abandon PoS, and permission-less distributed databases have existed since the 70s and failed then for the same reason all these will fail now - you simply cannot scale and keep it distributed, it all ends up getting centralized to a few key points because of the cost to maintain the exponentially-growing distributed infrastructure.

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago

I read your arguments and unfortunately most don't hold water. > 1. Miners currently use approximately only 0.0012% of the energy consumed by the world. This doesn't change the fact that you're using energy. The second argument is basically the same, just extrapolating into the future. > 3. Mining would be a waste if there was another more efficient way to implement a Bitcoin-like currency without proof-of-work. This is a logical fallacy. Mining means wasting energy regardless if there are other ways of producing digital currencies or not. Now, this one is actually interesting: > 4. Bitcoin is already a net benefit to the economy. Venture capitalists invested more than $1 billion into at least 729 Bitcoin companies which created thousands of jobs. You may disregard the first three arguments, but the bottom line is that spending an estimated 150 megawatt in a system that so far created thousands of jobs is a valuable economic move, not a waste. This example is a bit special because the jobs haven't been created by BCs themselves but by VCs spending their own money into BC-related companies. I just hope most of these aren't BC mines, otherwise we'd have a vicious circle here... >5. The energy cost per transaction is currently declining thanks to the transaction rate increasing faster than the network's energy consumption. Again: this kind of argument is of "it's not as bad as it sounds" type, and does nothing to refute the claim that mining is wasteful.

a_imho 9y ago
1. Miners currently use approximately only 0.0012% of the energy consumed by the world. Actually if that number is accurate, is quite shocking.
- aerique 9y ago
  I assume you mean shockingly high?
  - a_imho 9y ago
    Indeed, though I have to admit I do not really pay attention to crypto currencies.
- Sholmesy 9y ago

ckastner 9y ago

> 2) Because a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system has the potential to truly improve society, hence worth spending energy on it. The other side of the coin: a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system also re-introduces a substantial set of significant problems that societies have already long solved for themselves.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
In the words of Scott Alexander: "People are using the contingent stupidity of our current government to replace lots of human interaction with mechanisms that cannot be coordinated even in principle. I totally understand why all these things are good right now when most of what our government does is stupid and unnecessary. But there is going to come a time when – after one too many bioweapon or nanotech or nuclear incidents – we, as a civilization, are going to wish we hadn’t established untraceable and unstoppable ways of selling products." http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- CyberDildonics 9y ago
  Predicting a future of devestation. You would think we would be past buying into that ruse by now.
  - ExcilSploft 9y ago
    Is it that far fetched? Right now most disk encrypting ransomware demands bitcoin for decryption.
    - CyberDildonics 9y ago
      Are biological weapons being used to mass murder people a natural extrapolation of ransomware?
      - 9y ago

walterstucco 9y ago

> a permission-less censorship-resistant decentralized financial system has the potential to truly improve society It is dependent on a huge amount of cheap energy I wouldn't call it censorship resistant yet Raise the cost of the energy and only the ones with deep pockets can decide what is true

chillingeffect 9y ago
This comment led me to compare crypto mining with the American Gold Rush in the 1800s. An intriguing difference might at least some miners struck it big due after finding huge geographical deposits of gold. In cryptocoins, though, the flatter distribution of the space means people tend to get out what they put in.

legulere 9y ago

How are bitcoin and ethereum censorship-less and permission-less? Most cubans for instance don't have access to the internet without a permission. China could shut down the bitcoin easily by simply blocking bitcoin traffic.

CyberDildonics 9y ago
Is a USB drive really plug and play if it doesn't even work on my 20 year old flip phone? Why would you conflate two separate systems like that?

Nursie 9y ago

>> No there is no other way. There are various other ways, however many of them ditch the decentralised-trust nature of cryptocurrency. If this is not something important to you (which it isn't to that many people) then crypto-currency represents a huge waste of power for no appreciable gain.

DiThi 9y ago

PoS is perfectly workable, but one wouldn't switch overnight for a myriad of reasons. Ethereum will eventually be PoS for sure. There's also systems without "mining" like iota, which has every sender verify other two transactions, so it's very scalable and has no fees. The drawback is that having no mining, all tokens were created on genesis.