4 ms·

It's not _required_ to be unethical, it's just really tempting when you see others get rewarded for their unethical behavior. "When circumstances demand it" is

by gizmo 9y ago

It's not _required_ to be unethical, it's just really tempting when you see others get rewarded for their unethical behavior. "When circumstances demand it" is of course the excuse of all unethical people throughout history. Total weak sauce.

watwut 9y ago
I agree, but there is also subtle difference between unethical and asshole. You can be ethical asshole.
- gizmo 9y ago
  "Asshole" was used in contrast to being "too ethical", so from the context it cannot mean anything except for "unethical". If the parent meant "asshole" in the conventional sense (e.g. parking in two spots) it would make no sense to bring up in this discussion. The parent is rationalizing unethical behavior by classifying it as merely assholish. If you read the post carefully you can see the point where the cognitive dissonance takes place. The parent even said "the other extreme" is being too ethical, so he's clearing arguing that acting too ethical is undesirable.
nickpsecurity 9y ago
Try being the only one without a pile of patents on important tech in a patent war. Offensive use of patents + piles of money from market share and their own lock-in are among the reasons newer, big players are holding off older ones in the patent suits designed to eliminate competition with older ones. Originally, I thought I could just avoid what was patented until I learned how vague and ridiculous they are. Plus, there's said to be 200,000+ patents that could cover smartphones alone. Where would I start if doing legal, due diligence? Then, maybe I'd license them for a fair amount. I found NDA'd offers, high-balling, and even I.P. holders suing people w/ Oracle demanding $25 per Android phone for its tiny slice of smartphone patents, Java, or whatever. So much more honest licensing. So, status quo for tech companies is to not read on patents (avoid knowing infringement), grow as fast as they can no matter what patent laws they violate, accumulate their own patents where possible for use in self-defense, and build up lawyer money. One day, when the attacks come, the company will be ready for a solid defense where it claims it didn't know about the patents, they're void, or they're overpriced. This might also be leverage for a better deal during an acquisition. The operating environment is unethical in its very nature with certain things such as patents, trademarks, copyright, lock-in w/ formats/protocols (eg walled gardens) and so on. So, those that can use them will get a financial advantage. Those that don't might get so much less of the market they get squashed or denied a fortune they could be doing a lot of good with. Lots of grey areas to think through in these sorts of things.
- gizmo 9y ago
  > Lots of grey areas to think through in these sorts of things. Smart people can come up with elaborate justifications for anything, if they take the time to "think it through". Arguments that "they could be doing a lot of good" is basically "the end justifies the means". That's the opposite of morality. Maybe an executive is doing a lot of good and so it would be bad for society if he went to prison for a hit-and-run. Better cover up the crime so the good guy can keep doing the good things he so goodly does. All for the benefit of society, of course.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  You have an unusual set of ethics there. What you're describing for patents is not violating patent law, and I doubt you'd find many people in the tech industry who would equate potentially infringing someone's patent to adopting source code you don't own into your product in a copyright-infringing way.
  - nickpsecurity 9y ago
    " What you're describing for patents is not violating patent law" The law says I can't reproduce what's in a patent without permission/license from the patent-holder. The law also says that your intent doesn't matter: unknowingly infringing is also a violation but with less penalties. The big players defining markets or entering mature ones file patents on as much of them as possible to maximize chance new competition will infringe on one of their claims. They also acquire companies for their patents. So, newcomers often have to violate patent law or pay some large amount to a bunch of companies just to get their product in the market if keeping it legal. Or they just build, grab market share, and pretend patents don't exist. That's how almost all of them make it. The alternative is endlessly Googling patent databases about almost everything your business is doing in tech. I say good luck to a startup or SME trying to do that. "You have an unusual set of ethics there." The above advice was given to me by people who create patents for big companies. They said it's what their employers do. It's not my ethics so much as the only option that works without putting one player in a defensive, weak situation. That player still might get hit by NPE's, though. Whatever isn't deterred will involve a big payout to patent-holder or a bigger payout to lawyers that, if defense fails, results in an even bigger payout to patent holder. "I doubt you'd find many people in the tech industry who would equate potentially infringing someone's patent to adopting source code you don't own into your product in a copyright-infringing way." In their minds, that might be true. It wouldn't surprise me given that patent provisions aren't in a number of FOSS licenses. In legal reality, they're both a monopoly on a something that require a license to legally use. Thanks to bribery of politicians, the game is also rigged in favor of patent-holders and big incumbents most of the time.
srtjstjsj 9y ago
If you are not unethical _and a competitor is_, the competitor will have an edge.

by gizmo 9y ago

watwut 9y ago

I agree, but there is also subtle difference between unethical and asshole. You can be ethical asshole.

gizmo 9y ago
"Asshole" was used in contrast to being "too ethical", so from the context it cannot mean anything except for "unethical". If the parent meant "asshole" in the conventional sense (e.g. parking in two spots) it would make no sense to bring up in this discussion. The parent is rationalizing unethical behavior by classifying it as merely assholish. If you read the post carefully you can see the point where the cognitive dissonance takes place. The parent even said "the other extreme" is being too ethical, so he's clearing arguing that acting too ethical is undesirable.

nickpsecurity 9y ago

Try being the only one without a pile of patents on important tech in a patent war. Offensive use of patents + piles of money from market share and their own lock-in are among the reasons newer, big players are holding off older ones in the patent suits designed to eliminate competition with older ones. Originally, I thought I could just avoid what was patented until I learned how vague and ridiculous they are. Plus, there's said to be 200,000+ patents that could cover smartphones alone. Where would I start if doing legal, due diligence? Then, maybe I'd license them for a fair amount. I found NDA'd offers, high-balling, and even I.P. holders suing people w/ Oracle demanding $25 per Android phone for its tiny slice of smartphone patents, Java, or whatever. So much more honest licensing. So, status quo for tech companies is to not read on patents (avoid knowing infringement), grow as fast as they can no matter what patent laws they violate, accumulate their own patents where possible for use in self-defense, and build up lawyer money. One day, when the attacks come, the company will be ready for a solid defense where it claims it didn't know about the patents, they're void, or they're overpriced. This might also be leverage for a better deal during an acquisition. The operating environment is unethical in its very nature with certain things such as patents, trademarks, copyright, lock-in w/ formats/protocols (eg walled gardens) and so on. So, those that can use them will get a financial advantage. Those that don't might get so much less of the market they get squashed or denied a fortune they could be doing a lot of good with. Lots of grey areas to think through in these sorts of things.

gizmo 9y ago
> Lots of grey areas to think through in these sorts of things. Smart people can come up with elaborate justifications for anything, if they take the time to "think it through". Arguments that "they could be doing a lot of good" is basically "the end justifies the means". That's the opposite of morality. Maybe an executive is doing a lot of good and so it would be bad for society if he went to prison for a hit-and-run. Better cover up the crime so the good guy can keep doing the good things he so goodly does. All for the benefit of society, of course.
greglindahl 9y ago
You have an unusual set of ethics there. What you're describing for patents is not violating patent law, and I doubt you'd find many people in the tech industry who would equate potentially infringing someone's patent to adopting source code you don't own into your product in a copyright-infringing way.
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  " What you're describing for patents is not violating patent law" The law says I can't reproduce what's in a patent without permission/license from the patent-holder. The law also says that your intent doesn't matter: unknowingly infringing is also a violation but with less penalties. The big players defining markets or entering mature ones file patents on as much of them as possible to maximize chance new competition will infringe on one of their claims. They also acquire companies for their patents. So, newcomers often have to violate patent law or pay some large amount to a bunch of companies just to get their product in the market if keeping it legal. Or they just build, grab market share, and pretend patents don't exist. That's how almost all of them make it. The alternative is endlessly Googling patent databases about almost everything your business is doing in tech. I say good luck to a startup or SME trying to do that. "You have an unusual set of ethics there." The above advice was given to me by people who create patents for big companies. They said it's what their employers do. It's not my ethics so much as the only option that works without putting one player in a defensive, weak situation. That player still might get hit by NPE's, though. Whatever isn't deterred will involve a big payout to patent-holder or a bigger payout to lawyers that, if defense fails, results in an even bigger payout to patent holder. "I doubt you'd find many people in the tech industry who would equate potentially infringing someone's patent to adopting source code you don't own into your product in a copyright-infringing way." In their minds, that might be true. It wouldn't surprise me given that patent provisions aren't in a number of FOSS licenses. In legal reality, they're both a monopoly on a something that require a license to legally use. Thanks to bribery of politicians, the game is also rigged in favor of patent-holders and big incumbents most of the time.

srtjstjsj 9y ago

If you are not unethical _and a competitor is_, the competitor will have an edge.