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> Therefore, they require indirect language and those VPs have to dynamically adjust the communication to that personality. This was one of the biggest things

> Therefore, they require indirect language and those VPs have to dynamically adjust the communication to that personality. This was one of the biggest things I had to learn in my first management/executive position. Just because all of the senior management enjoyed aggressive debating and sussing out of ideas didn't mean we could use the same language and approach when talking to other employees. I'm definitely ashamed by some of the emotional harm I caused our lower-level employees. Also it's important to note that you also need to be aware of who is listening. If you call a fellow VP's idea stupid, that can provoke negativity from more indirect listeners (even though he has no problem with it). Even if they aren't personally the target of direct criticism, many people are uncomfortable even hearing it about others.

TulliusCicero 9y ago
> Just because all of the senior management enjoyed aggressive debating and sussing out of ideas didn't mean we could use the same language and approach when talking to other employees. I'm guessing a big part of this is how secure each person feels. Someone in senior management already has a highly successful career, they could probably get another decent job pretty easily, and their income is high enough to where they probably have a fair amount of money saved up in case of a rainy day. For lower-level employees, this is frequently not true. Savings are more often minimal, many would not be able to easily get another good job. So naturally they will feel more threatened by blunt or 'harsh' language.
- morgante 9y ago
  That could definitely be true, but at least in my experience there are clear personality differences as well. Certain personality traits are necessary to get into senior management, and a lot of those traits tend to lead to valuing direct feedback. > they could probably get another decent job pretty easily This is actually pretty false. Management jobs take a lot more time and effort to find than lower level ones. In tech especially, IC job hunts are way easier than any sort of management roles.
  - matt_kantor 9y ago
    It's frustrating how this thread keeps conflating directness/indirectness with rudeness/kindness. They're different dimensions. Direct/rude: "Wow, X is a stupid way to do Y. X will break case Z, but I guess you're not smart enough to notice things like that. Start over and try not to waste my time again in your next pull request." Direct/kind: "I see you're doing X, but there might be a better way to accomplish Y. For example, X will break case Z. Could you try a different implementation with that in mind?" Indirect/rude: "You must be an idiot to try X. Users who Z will hate you if this change makes it through. Out of all the ways to do Y I don't know why you'd choose this one." Indirect/kind: "I appreciate your effort, but I'm not sure about X. You may not have realized that Z is an important use case and there might be other ways to do Y. It would be nice to think about this some more."
- abyssin 9y ago
  As a lower-level employee, aggressive debating is also something that is simply not accepted from lower-level employees. It seems to be working as a signal of status. While officially welcomed, blunt criticism has been followed by behaviours that I can only understand as retaliatory.
rdiddly 9y ago
Indeed - I can recall a time when I poked fun at a peer, and the peer got the joke and laughed, but his sycophants were outraged on his behalf.

TulliusCicero 9y ago

> Just because all of the senior management enjoyed aggressive debating and sussing out of ideas didn't mean we could use the same language and approach when talking to other employees. I'm guessing a big part of this is how secure each person feels. Someone in senior management already has a highly successful career, they could probably get another decent job pretty easily, and their income is high enough to where they probably have a fair amount of money saved up in case of a rainy day. For lower-level employees, this is frequently not true. Savings are more often minimal, many would not be able to easily get another good job. So naturally they will feel more threatened by blunt or 'harsh' language.

morgante 9y ago
That could definitely be true, but at least in my experience there are clear personality differences as well. Certain personality traits are necessary to get into senior management, and a lot of those traits tend to lead to valuing direct feedback. > they could probably get another decent job pretty easily This is actually pretty false. Management jobs take a lot more time and effort to find than lower level ones. In tech especially, IC job hunts are way easier than any sort of management roles.
- matt_kantor 9y ago
  It's frustrating how this thread keeps conflating directness/indirectness with rudeness/kindness. They're different dimensions. Direct/rude: "Wow, X is a stupid way to do Y. X will break case Z, but I guess you're not smart enough to notice things like that. Start over and try not to waste my time again in your next pull request." Direct/kind: "I see you're doing X, but there might be a better way to accomplish Y. For example, X will break case Z. Could you try a different implementation with that in mind?" Indirect/rude: "You must be an idiot to try X. Users who Z will hate you if this change makes it through. Out of all the ways to do Y I don't know why you'd choose this one." Indirect/kind: "I appreciate your effort, but I'm not sure about X. You may not have realized that Z is an important use case and there might be other ways to do Y. It would be nice to think about this some more."
abyssin 9y ago
As a lower-level employee, aggressive debating is also something that is simply not accepted from lower-level employees. It seems to be working as a signal of status. While officially welcomed, blunt criticism has been followed by behaviours that I can only understand as retaliatory.

rdiddly 9y ago

Indeed - I can recall a time when I poked fun at a peer, and the peer got the joke and laughed, but his sycophants were outraged on his behalf.