4 ms·

> Gulenist group did the coup attempt Has the government provided convincing evidence of this? I know Gülen was immediately accused despite not being in the co

by sesqu 9y ago

> Gulenist group did the coup attempt Has the government provided convincing evidence of this? I know Gülen was immediately accused despite not being in the country, but I don't know of any evidence of his audience being involved beyond Erdoğan not getting along with the guy, which automatically makes any opposition sympathetic to him.

mrtksn 9y ago
AFAIK the evidence is that well known civilian Gulen affiliates were caught in military bases and armoured vehicles on the coup night but a concrete evidence of Gulen himself giving the orders do not exist. A bit like the story of the Russian military personnel in Ukraine(like everything points to Russia but Kremlin denies any involvement and claims that the caught soldiers were on a vacation in war zone). If you want to read more about the subject, here is a nice write up by pro-Erdogan, liberal, non-islamist(yep, they still exist) Turkish jurnos: https://medium.com/@15thJulyCoup/who-was-behind-the-15th-july-coup-in-turkey-19f75a5771c5 https://medium.com/@15thJulyCoup/who-was-behind-the-15th-jul...
- riffraff 9y ago
  As someone outside of Turkish politics: how is it even possible to be liberal and pro-erdogan? I can see why someone might like the guy or think he's somehow good for the country, but it seems, to an outsider, that he's 100% incompatible with liberal values.
  - mrtksn 9y ago
    Erdogan came to power thanks to the support of the liberals. He had their support because before Erdogan Turkey wasn't a liberal democracy and Erdogan actually had very progressive agenda compared to the hard core secularist establishment. That's how he had the support of the EU and USA liberals too. Turkey before Erdogan wasn't much different than today but with much less islamic sauce in the politics.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- serkanh 9y ago
  Author is Yildiray Ogur! He is anything but liberal. As a matter of fact his best bud(Mustafa Varank)from college is perhaps the top advisor to Erdogan. He was also the chief propagandist during Ergenekon trials which they jailed thousands od secular writers, millitary officers, journalist.
buremba 9y ago
Their media was clearly inferring that they will fix the problem in a near future and this was the only way for them to get rid of the pressure. They spent their last 15 years to raise police officers, soldiers, doctors and primary school teachers and the government was helping them since they thought that the Gulenists will obey their rules and share their mission by oppressing their non-supporters. Basically Erdogan took a religious group and made them political and when they had the power, they used it against the government and Erdogan just got away with the accusations with "We were tricked by Gulenists, they're terrorist", nothing more. Although Gulen still doesn't accept that they did the coup attempt, this was the only way for them to out and even this one was actually hopeless. They have a great hierarchic system so it's hard to keep track of the decision-maker and prove the case so there is no clear evidence, that's why I told "I believe". It's possible that Erdogan knew the coup attempt and yet wait for them (or even convince with third-party organizations) to do it so that we can declare them terrorist without a doubt and do whatever he wants with his followers' support.
diminish 9y ago
Actually there's no doubt that Gulenist islamists staged the coup and they are like those private label grocery brands - never do anything on their own name. Their US-based cleric has embedded thousands of Shakirts(students) well organized in police, army, juridical system. Indeed till last few years, Gulenists were the love of Erdogan, a lot of governments, politicians and public, liberals. Now only left with some support in Washington, as they lack clear motto, ideology and have close to zero public support.
- sesqu 9y ago
  That sounds an awful lot like the Global Liberal Conspiracy. If they don't even have a common ideology, how can they be said to follow the teachings of any cleric?
  - diminish 9y ago
    they were barebone Islamists and I suspect in Washington it's not much in fashion. your comparison is wrong btw.
tim333 9y ago
The government has not provided convincing evidence that "Gulenist group did the coup attempt" although there were at least some Gulenists involved. Bellingcat got hold of the whatsapp messages of some of the coup guys and the seem much more like the Kermalist / secular military types that did Turkey's previous coup attempts. (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/07/24/the-turkey-coup-through-the-eyes-of-its-plotters/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/07/24/the-turkey-c...) Erdoğan was out to get the Gulenists as some of them did try to get rid of him by exposing his corruption earlier but that's a different thing from attempting a coup. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10659867/Erdogan-cries-foul-over-money-tapes-leak-implicating-son.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/1065...)

by sesqu 9y ago

mrtksn 9y ago

AFAIK the evidence is that well known civilian Gulen affiliates were caught in military bases and armoured vehicles on the coup night but a concrete evidence of Gulen himself giving the orders do not exist. A bit like the story of the Russian military personnel in Ukraine(like everything points to Russia but Kremlin denies any involvement and claims that the caught soldiers were on a vacation in war zone). If you want to read more about the subject, here is a nice write up by pro-Erdogan, liberal, non-islamist(yep, they still exist) Turkish jurnos: https://medium.com/@15thJulyCoup/who-was-behind-the-15th-july-coup-in-turkey-19f75a5771c5 https://medium.com/@15thJulyCoup/who-was-behind-the-15th-jul...

riffraff 9y ago
As someone outside of Turkish politics: how is it even possible to be liberal and pro-erdogan? I can see why someone might like the guy or think he's somehow good for the country, but it seems, to an outsider, that he's 100% incompatible with liberal values.
- mrtksn 9y ago
  Erdogan came to power thanks to the support of the liberals. He had their support because before Erdogan Turkey wasn't a liberal democracy and Erdogan actually had very progressive agenda compared to the hard core secularist establishment. That's how he had the support of the EU and USA liberals too. Turkey before Erdogan wasn't much different than today but with much less islamic sauce in the politics.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
serkanh 9y ago
Author is Yildiray Ogur! He is anything but liberal. As a matter of fact his best bud(Mustafa Varank)from college is perhaps the top advisor to Erdogan. He was also the chief propagandist during Ergenekon trials which they jailed thousands od secular writers, millitary officers, journalist.

buremba 9y ago

Their media was clearly inferring that they will fix the problem in a near future and this was the only way for them to get rid of the pressure. They spent their last 15 years to raise police officers, soldiers, doctors and primary school teachers and the government was helping them since they thought that the Gulenists will obey their rules and share their mission by oppressing their non-supporters. Basically Erdogan took a religious group and made them political and when they had the power, they used it against the government and Erdogan just got away with the accusations with "We were tricked by Gulenists, they're terrorist", nothing more. Although Gulen still doesn't accept that they did the coup attempt, this was the only way for them to out and even this one was actually hopeless. They have a great hierarchic system so it's hard to keep track of the decision-maker and prove the case so there is no clear evidence, that's why I told "I believe". It's possible that Erdogan knew the coup attempt and yet wait for them (or even convince with third-party organizations) to do it so that we can declare them terrorist without a doubt and do whatever he wants with his followers' support.

diminish 9y ago

Actually there's no doubt that Gulenist islamists staged the coup and they are like those private label grocery brands - never do anything on their own name. Their US-based cleric has embedded thousands of Shakirts(students) well organized in police, army, juridical system. Indeed till last few years, Gulenists were the love of Erdogan, a lot of governments, politicians and public, liberals. Now only left with some support in Washington, as they lack clear motto, ideology and have close to zero public support.

sesqu 9y ago
That sounds an awful lot like the Global Liberal Conspiracy. If they don't even have a common ideology, how can they be said to follow the teachings of any cleric?
- diminish 9y ago
  they were barebone Islamists and I suspect in Washington it's not much in fashion. your comparison is wrong btw.

tim333 9y ago

The government has not provided convincing evidence that "Gulenist group did the coup attempt" although there were at least some Gulenists involved. Bellingcat got hold of the whatsapp messages of some of the coup guys and the seem much more like the Kermalist / secular military types that did Turkey's previous coup attempts. (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/07/24/the-turkey-coup-through-the-eyes-of-its-plotters/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/07/24/the-turkey-c...) Erdoğan was out to get the Gulenists as some of them did try to get rid of him by exposing his corruption earlier but that's a different thing from attempting a coup. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10659867/Erdogan-cries-foul-over-money-tapes-leak-implicating-son.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/1065...)