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That is quite an epic underestimation of the possible consequences, both economically and geopolitically. Are you Theresa May ? :) I'm not sure how the fact th

That is quite an epic underestimation of the possible consequences, both economically and geopolitically. Are you Theresa May ? :) I'm not sure how the fact that business can find opportunity even in times of great adversity (including times of war) supports in any way your argument that Brexit is not bringing about adversity. It is very much a self-inflicted wrench in the spanner that the (thus-far booming) UK economy could have done without. It's stating the obvious to say that things stabilise and life goes on "in time" (that is, over 30-50 years cycles). That absolutely doesn't demonstrate that there won't have have been much unnecessary suffering, from economic downturn to war in the meantime.

ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "That is quite an epic underestimation of the possible consequences, both economically and geopolitically. Are you Theresa May ? :)" Yeah, I'm Theresa May, ask me anything. ;-) > "I'm not sure how the fact that business can find opportunity even in times of great adversity (including times of war) supports in any way your argument that Brexit is not bringing about adversity. It is very much a self-inflicted wrench in the spanner that the (thus-far booming) UK economy could have done without." If the only consideration was the economy I'd agree with you, but there's more at play here than just the economy. > "It's stating the obvious to say that things stabilise and life goes on "in time" (that is, over 30-50 years cycles). That absolutely doesn't demonstrate that there won't have have been much unnecessary suffering, from economic downturn to war in the meantime." Again, the main arguments against the EU were not about the economy. Clearly you're mostly pro-EU, but do you see any flaws with the current EU?
- allendoerfer 9y ago
  > Again, the main arguments against the EU were not about the economy. Clearly you're mostly pro-EU, but do you see any flaws with the current EU? I am very much pro EU. I also see flaws with the current EU, but to me they can only be solved by more EU not by stepping back. More democracy, less state-involvement to solve legitimacy problems, more financial responsibilities to solve Euro and Southern economic problems. To me the benefits (stance in the world, peace, freedom of movement) outweigh the costs and problems by such a huge margin. I was born after the cold war and to me the integrity of states or peace always seemed like a solved issue, but as you can see in Ukraine it is not at all. Compare problems of that scale to working out some bugs in a monetary union, which btw. is even working pretty well, considering that something like this has never worked before. It is a monumental and exciting project. Some sort of peaceful empire, where every nation and people actually benefits and nobody is forced to participate. We are basically writing history. To me "Then Asia, but Europe lived happy and peaceful ever after.", seems like a perfect ending of the current chapter.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "More democracy, less state-involvement to solve legitimacy problems, more financial responsibilities to solve Euro and Southern economic problems." That's an interesting mix. It sounds like you're pro-democracy and also pro-centralisation, would you say that's a fair statement? > ""Then Asia, but Europe lived happy and peaceful ever after."" Are you implying that Asia is on the path to peace ahead of Europe?
    - geff82 9y ago
      Pro-centralisation and pro-democracy don't exclude each other.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Depends on how it's done, but generally local politics can be more reactive to local needs than centralised politics. As always, there's a balance to be found, but that's generally the case. To give a more concrete example, who do you think has a better sense of the struggles the Greek people currently face, people who live in Greece or people who live in Belgium?
    - allendoerfer 9y ago
      > That's an interesting mix. It sounds like you're pro-democracy and also pro-centralisation, would you say that's a fair statement? I am pro-centralisation in the sense, that I see areas where the benefits are obvious: everything regarding unified market, freedom and access for people, military, foreign policy, environmental issues. I also see areas where you have to be careful: privacy, data protection, lack of transparency, lack of control. What I do have is a mindset, of paying it forward a bit and not having to get instant compensation. I am for example generally okay with the EU building infrastructure in poorer countries. We will get that value back, but it will take its time and it will come in different, hard to be measured forms. That's why I think you should not be to pedantic when measuring your own benefit. It evens out, while the overall value steadily increases the more countries work together. It is not only about whether your piece of the cake is a tiny bit bigger, but also the overall size of the cake increases. I do see, how such thoughts are harder to have, when you are living in one of the paying countries and personally feeling left behind. > Are you implying that Asia is on the path to peace ahead of Europe? No, not at all. I am just saying that Asia is on its way to the top and that the EU cannot count on the US staying world leader. Countries like Germany, France or Great Britain will have no say in world politics whatsoever, while the EU as a whole can be a stable local power big enough to be heard in the world and pursue its interest and have some influence.

ZenoArrow 9y ago

> "That is quite an epic underestimation of the possible consequences, both economically and geopolitically. Are you Theresa May ? :)" Yeah, I'm Theresa May, ask me anything. ;-) > "I'm not sure how the fact that business can find opportunity even in times of great adversity (including times of war) supports in any way your argument that Brexit is not bringing about adversity. It is very much a self-inflicted wrench in the spanner that the (thus-far booming) UK economy could have done without." If the only consideration was the economy I'd agree with you, but there's more at play here than just the economy. > "It's stating the obvious to say that things stabilise and life goes on "in time" (that is, over 30-50 years cycles). That absolutely doesn't demonstrate that there won't have have been much unnecessary suffering, from economic downturn to war in the meantime." Again, the main arguments against the EU were not about the economy. Clearly you're mostly pro-EU, but do you see any flaws with the current EU?

allendoerfer 9y ago
> Again, the main arguments against the EU were not about the economy. Clearly you're mostly pro-EU, but do you see any flaws with the current EU? I am very much pro EU. I also see flaws with the current EU, but to me they can only be solved by more EU not by stepping back. More democracy, less state-involvement to solve legitimacy problems, more financial responsibilities to solve Euro and Southern economic problems. To me the benefits (stance in the world, peace, freedom of movement) outweigh the costs and problems by such a huge margin. I was born after the cold war and to me the integrity of states or peace always seemed like a solved issue, but as you can see in Ukraine it is not at all. Compare problems of that scale to working out some bugs in a monetary union, which btw. is even working pretty well, considering that something like this has never worked before. It is a monumental and exciting project. Some sort of peaceful empire, where every nation and people actually benefits and nobody is forced to participate. We are basically writing history. To me "Then Asia, but Europe lived happy and peaceful ever after.", seems like a perfect ending of the current chapter.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "More democracy, less state-involvement to solve legitimacy problems, more financial responsibilities to solve Euro and Southern economic problems." That's an interesting mix. It sounds like you're pro-democracy and also pro-centralisation, would you say that's a fair statement? > ""Then Asia, but Europe lived happy and peaceful ever after."" Are you implying that Asia is on the path to peace ahead of Europe?
  - geff82 9y ago
    Pro-centralisation and pro-democracy don't exclude each other.
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Depends on how it's done, but generally local politics can be more reactive to local needs than centralised politics. As always, there's a balance to be found, but that's generally the case. To give a more concrete example, who do you think has a better sense of the struggles the Greek people currently face, people who live in Greece or people who live in Belgium?
  - allendoerfer 9y ago
    > That's an interesting mix. It sounds like you're pro-democracy and also pro-centralisation, would you say that's a fair statement? I am pro-centralisation in the sense, that I see areas where the benefits are obvious: everything regarding unified market, freedom and access for people, military, foreign policy, environmental issues. I also see areas where you have to be careful: privacy, data protection, lack of transparency, lack of control. What I do have is a mindset, of paying it forward a bit and not having to get instant compensation. I am for example generally okay with the EU building infrastructure in poorer countries. We will get that value back, but it will take its time and it will come in different, hard to be measured forms. That's why I think you should not be to pedantic when measuring your own benefit. It evens out, while the overall value steadily increases the more countries work together. It is not only about whether your piece of the cake is a tiny bit bigger, but also the overall size of the cake increases. I do see, how such thoughts are harder to have, when you are living in one of the paying countries and personally feeling left behind. > Are you implying that Asia is on the path to peace ahead of Europe? No, not at all. I am just saying that Asia is on its way to the top and that the EU cannot count on the US staying world leader. Countries like Germany, France or Great Britain will have no say in world politics whatsoever, while the EU as a whole can be a stable local power big enough to be heard in the world and pursue its interest and have some influence.