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> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absol

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published online from a lawyer making that claim. (None of the analyses I've seen, at least; if you found some, please post them.) In fact, the only place where this claim does crop up is in off-the-cuff message board comments. FWIW, I don't use React, I don't want to, I'm not a Facebook employee, and in fact I think the world would be a lot better off with Facebook having less influence than they do today. But that doesn't change how weird it is to keep seeing comments like yours that make claims like the one above.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
khuey 9y ago
It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- MichaelBurge 9y ago
  A company the size of Facebook can't really get away with that scheme even if it were intentional. For one thing, I can sell the patent to a troll and let them do my dirty work. Or a company could buy you solely to get fuel to sue Facebook over. If Zuckerberg signs a paper with the wrong title, there's a troll lawsuit the next day. So if you make a habit of "in practice" strongarming people, you can easily slip up and have a huge headache on your hands.
  - noncoml 9y ago
    > A company the size of Facebook can't really get away with that scheme even if it were intentional. You maybe be right, but why would I want to take my chances?
    - Olivia4654 9y ago
      Im making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do, ====http://www.joinmate2.com http://www.joinmate2.com
- captainmuon 9y ago
  What if there was no patent grant, and just the BSD license? Then you have no patent protection in the first place! You are in the same situation as when the patent grant expired because you sued them. I don't see how this is any better. You do not give them a license to use any patent. You are right that in practice the non-enforcement means that they can willy-nilly use your patents. But if we are arguing about factual ability vs legal rights - they can probably already to that, due to the fact that they likely have more money and better lawyers then you do.
  - emn13 9y ago
    You are in a better place though - because you're not the only react user. If indeed it turns out there are some submarine react patents facebook owns, with this patent license most other users can continue to work. Without the license, facebook then has the choice to either sue everybody (kind of unlikely) or to create the situation wherein suddenly everyone knows that they're infringing but haven't yet been sued, or to retrospectively grant the license (probably losing trust). And if you do have the license - then what? It's still a react death-knell should any submarine patent appear; no large company is every going to agree to such an assymetrical deal. Better to at least be left in the situation where it's likely in facebook's own interest to never surface any (so restrictively licensed) patents in the first place.
    - captainmuon 9y ago
      > no large company is every going to agree to such an assymetrical deal. The thing is, if you just use react for something inconsequential, and can live with the fact that you have to cease using it when you sue Facebook, then it is fine. You shouldn't base your business on Facebook's (potential) patents, and then attack them with your own patents - but that is true with or without the patent grant. Of course, what would be great would be 1) a finer grained, symmetrical patent grant, or 2) a bilateral agreement between your company and Facebook instead of the patent grant. If you are big enough and have patents, you can probably negotiate something like that.
      - 9y ago
- daveheq 9y ago
  Companies shouldn't be dictating what happens if they're sued; it's a government right just like it's a natural right to accuse someone of theft. People shouldn't be sabotaged of their right to sue based on some arbitrary terms meant to block people from suing, their right to accuse someone of theft.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  The fact that GPL licenses went for a patent grab (on hardware patents too) with an implicit patent grant paved the way for Facebook. It's just a very bad idea, unless you think all intellectual property should be swept into the dustbin of history, of course.
rosser 9y ago
It's a de facto one-way "all your patents are available to us" grant, because you can't sue them if they violate any patents you may have, without ceding your l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ability to use React. EDIT: better?
- Lazare 9y ago
  > without ceding your license to use React. Ceding your license to use any patents Facebook may or may not have on React. There's a difference.
  - cma 9y ago
    You can't legally use React without a patents license. The difference between the patents grant and the copyright license is mostly in the timeframe they cover (20 years for patents, 100+ years or whatever for copyright).
    - Lazare 9y ago
      > You can't legally use React without a patents license. I'll send you US$50 if you can find ANY evidence this is true in the US, UK, Aus, or Canada. :)
      - khuey 9y ago
        That nobody seems to know whether there are in fact any patents licensed by the patent grant within React is one of the most frustrating things about it.
        Lazare 9y ago
        Agreed. It gives the entire debate a very metaphysical quality. How can I determine the value of a patent grant when I don't know what the patents are, or if they even exist?
        9y ago
cma 9y ago
> Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. I detailed the specifics. Take this example: In exchange for doing graphic design on your menu, I stipulate that I can shut down your bakery if you take me to court when I eat from the bakery without paying. Now, sure, I haven't granted you the right to come eat my wares, but I'm going to have to shutdown my shop to keep it from happening. In this case as long as you change the menu you can go back and enforce it, but with software, it isn't as feasible (say you had a game built on top of Raknet, which has the same PATENTS rider).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

khuey 9y ago

It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
MichaelBurge 9y ago
A company the size of Facebook can't really get away with that scheme even if it were intentional. For one thing, I can sell the patent to a troll and let them do my dirty work. Or a company could buy you solely to get fuel to sue Facebook over. If Zuckerberg signs a paper with the wrong title, there's a troll lawsuit the next day. So if you make a habit of "in practice" strongarming people, you can easily slip up and have a huge headache on your hands.
- noncoml 9y ago
  > A company the size of Facebook can't really get away with that scheme even if it were intentional. You maybe be right, but why would I want to take my chances?
  - Olivia4654 9y ago
    Im making over $7k a month working part time. I kept hearing other people tell me how much money they can make online so I decided to look into it. Well, it was all true and has totally changed my life. This is what I do, ====http://www.joinmate2.com http://www.joinmate2.com
captainmuon 9y ago
What if there was no patent grant, and just the BSD license? Then you have no patent protection in the first place! You are in the same situation as when the patent grant expired because you sued them. I don't see how this is any better. You do not give them a license to use any patent. You are right that in practice the non-enforcement means that they can willy-nilly use your patents. But if we are arguing about factual ability vs legal rights - they can probably already to that, due to the fact that they likely have more money and better lawyers then you do.
- emn13 9y ago
  You are in a better place though - because you're not the only react user. If indeed it turns out there are some submarine react patents facebook owns, with this patent license most other users can continue to work. Without the license, facebook then has the choice to either sue everybody (kind of unlikely) or to create the situation wherein suddenly everyone knows that they're infringing but haven't yet been sued, or to retrospectively grant the license (probably losing trust). And if you do have the license - then what? It's still a react death-knell should any submarine patent appear; no large company is every going to agree to such an assymetrical deal. Better to at least be left in the situation where it's likely in facebook's own interest to never surface any (so restrictively licensed) patents in the first place.
  - captainmuon 9y ago
    > no large company is every going to agree to such an assymetrical deal. The thing is, if you just use react for something inconsequential, and can live with the fact that you have to cease using it when you sue Facebook, then it is fine. You shouldn't base your business on Facebook's (potential) patents, and then attack them with your own patents - but that is true with or without the patent grant. Of course, what would be great would be 1) a finer grained, symmetrical patent grant, or 2) a bilateral agreement between your company and Facebook instead of the patent grant. If you are big enough and have patents, you can probably negotiate something like that.
    - 9y ago
daveheq 9y ago
Companies shouldn't be dictating what happens if they're sued; it's a government right just like it's a natural right to accuse someone of theft. People shouldn't be sabotaged of their right to sue based on some arbitrary terms meant to block people from suing, their right to accuse someone of theft.
Nomentatus 9y ago
The fact that GPL licenses went for a patent grab (on hardware patents too) with an implicit patent grant paved the way for Facebook. It's just a very bad idea, unless you think all intellectual property should be swept into the dustbin of history, of course.

rosser 9y ago

It's a de facto one-way "all your patents are available to us" grant, because you can't sue them if they violate any patents you may have, without ceding your l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ability to use React. EDIT: better?

Lazare 9y ago
> without ceding your license to use React. Ceding your license to use any patents Facebook may or may not have on React. There's a difference.
- cma 9y ago
  You can't legally use React without a patents license. The difference between the patents grant and the copyright license is mostly in the timeframe they cover (20 years for patents, 100+ years or whatever for copyright).
  - Lazare 9y ago
    > You can't legally use React without a patents license. I'll send you US$50 if you can find ANY evidence this is true in the US, UK, Aus, or Canada. :)
    - khuey 9y ago
      That nobody seems to know whether there are in fact any patents licensed by the patent grant within React is one of the most frustrating things about it.
      - Lazare 9y ago
        Agreed. It gives the entire debate a very metaphysical quality. How can I determine the value of a patent grant when I don't know what the patents are, or if they even exist?
        9y ago

cma 9y ago

> Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. I detailed the specifics. Take this example: In exchange for doing graphic design on your menu, I stipulate that I can shut down your bakery if you take me to court when I eat from the bakery without paying. Now, sure, I haven't granted you the right to come eat my wares, but I'm going to have to shutdown my shop to keep it from happening. In this case as long as you change the menu you can go back and enforce it, but with software, it isn't as feasible (say you had a game built on top of Raknet, which has the same PATENTS rider).