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I wonder how would things have been if Turket had been accepted to EU 10 years ago. Would it have helped?

sremani 9y ago
Turkey has been powerful when it had the "Islamic World" under its stewardship. Being EU member would have improved the hand of "Secularists" for few years or so. Given the unraveling of EU experiment it would have at best delayed certain things, sooner or later in a generation the Turkey will look more like the Ottoman era both in its power and projection than it was for much of 20th century. So broadly speaking, NO.
- vixen99 9y ago
  Is no one else getting really fed up with this discriminatory dimming feature on HN? It's basically "Many of us don't like what you're saying (OK) and will therefore make it difficult for those with poor sight to read it (not OK)". What is it but weak censorship? What about an alternative?
acjohnson55 9y ago
It may have simply made it easier for more cosmopolitan Turks to leave the country. Or, maybe integration would have harmonized them with Western society. Who can say?
matt4077 9y ago
Yes, almost certainly. They wouldn't have had to become a member back then. All that was needed was a realistic path to membership. Instead, some influential EU leaders basically said "It's never going to happen", sometimes under pressure from their countries' right wing. Not because Turkey was economically too far behind, or because of concerns with the rule of law, but simply because a sizeable portion of EU populations objected to non-christians becoming part of the EU. Nobody knows what could have been, and the current situation shows that turkish democracy was rather weak all along. But it's important to remember that Erdogan started out as a moderate, who sought nothing more than approval from the EU, and only turned to the dark side after repeatedly being humiliated. It's possibly one of largest mistakes made in recent history.
- enimodas 9y ago
  Why should they accept a country that's not in Europe for 95% of its landmass? Not to mention the huge cultural gap.
  - eru 9y ago
    The borders of Europe the continent are arbitrary. Cultural gap between eg members Sweden and Italy is probably bigger than between member Greece and Turkey?
    - tormeh 9y ago
      I've heard some Turks saying that the people living in Istanbul and western Turkey are basically Greek. Land has changed hands between Turkey and Greece many times and the people there often stayed put.
      - eru 9y ago
        Of course, there's lots of animosity between them because of that shared history. So don't mention the similarities to their face, unless you know them well. Cuisine in western Turkey and Greece is basically the same, too.
- Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
  The biggest mistake of the EU has been accepting too many countries in, not too few. For an Europeanist it's desperating to see how the UK (now to be gone) and Eastern European countries have always blocked policies of further integration. If Turkey were in and with veto power, the EU would be able to do practically nothing, as the cultural and political differences are huge. The EU would probably be on the verge of breaking up now, or would have already broken up at the Greek crisis. And the story of the "moderate" Erdogan turning an authoritarian dictator after being "humiliated" sounds extremely naive to me. The things he is doing are not the work of a humiliated moderate. They are the work of an authoritarian for whom the alleged humiliation was a very convenient excuse to stop pretending to be a moderate.
jwilk 9y ago
EU isn't very effective in stopping Hungary's or Poland's authoritarian descent. I doubt it would be effective against Turkey.
- zo1 9y ago
  If you look at it from the other perspective, you could argue that the EU's very left-leaning and sacrificial policies are being very effective in promoting such changes to Poland & Hungary. I personally wouldn't call it "authoritarian descent", though.
- qbaqbaqba 9y ago
  Please, before comparing Poland or Hungary to Turkey take some time and do a basic research.

Turkey has been powerful when it had the "Islamic World" under its stewardship. Being EU member would have improved the hand of "Secularists" for few years or so. Given the unraveling of EU experiment it would have at best delayed certain things, sooner or later in a generation the Turkey will look more like the Ottoman era both in its power and projection than it was for much of 20th century. So broadly speaking, NO.

vixen99 9y ago
Is no one else getting really fed up with this discriminatory dimming feature on HN? It's basically "Many of us don't like what you're saying (OK) and will therefore make it difficult for those with poor sight to read it (not OK)". What is it but weak censorship? What about an alternative?

acjohnson55 9y ago

It may have simply made it easier for more cosmopolitan Turks to leave the country. Or, maybe integration would have harmonized them with Western society. Who can say?

matt4077 9y ago

Yes, almost certainly. They wouldn't have had to become a member back then. All that was needed was a realistic path to membership. Instead, some influential EU leaders basically said "It's never going to happen", sometimes under pressure from their countries' right wing. Not because Turkey was economically too far behind, or because of concerns with the rule of law, but simply because a sizeable portion of EU populations objected to non-christians becoming part of the EU. Nobody knows what could have been, and the current situation shows that turkish democracy was rather weak all along. But it's important to remember that Erdogan started out as a moderate, who sought nothing more than approval from the EU, and only turned to the dark side after repeatedly being humiliated. It's possibly one of largest mistakes made in recent history.

enimodas 9y ago
Why should they accept a country that's not in Europe for 95% of its landmass? Not to mention the huge cultural gap.
- eru 9y ago
  The borders of Europe the continent are arbitrary. Cultural gap between eg members Sweden and Italy is probably bigger than between member Greece and Turkey?
  - tormeh 9y ago
    I've heard some Turks saying that the people living in Istanbul and western Turkey are basically Greek. Land has changed hands between Turkey and Greece many times and the people there often stayed put.
    - eru 9y ago
      Of course, there's lots of animosity between them because of that shared history. So don't mention the similarities to their face, unless you know them well. Cuisine in western Turkey and Greece is basically the same, too.
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
The biggest mistake of the EU has been accepting too many countries in, not too few. For an Europeanist it's desperating to see how the UK (now to be gone) and Eastern European countries have always blocked policies of further integration. If Turkey were in and with veto power, the EU would be able to do practically nothing, as the cultural and political differences are huge. The EU would probably be on the verge of breaking up now, or would have already broken up at the Greek crisis. And the story of the "moderate" Erdogan turning an authoritarian dictator after being "humiliated" sounds extremely naive to me. The things he is doing are not the work of a humiliated moderate. They are the work of an authoritarian for whom the alleged humiliation was a very convenient excuse to stop pretending to be a moderate.

jwilk 9y ago

EU isn't very effective in stopping Hungary's or Poland's authoritarian descent. I doubt it would be effective against Turkey.

zo1 9y ago
If you look at it from the other perspective, you could argue that the EU's very left-leaning and sacrificial policies are being very effective in promoting such changes to Poland & Hungary. I personally wouldn't call it "authoritarian descent", though.
qbaqbaqba 9y ago
Please, before comparing Poland or Hungary to Turkey take some time and do a basic research.