6 ms·

You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.

by krona 9y ago

prodmerc 9y ago
Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
  - prodmerc 9y ago
    Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      > "I like the idea of a united Europe" I like the idea of greater cooperation across Europe, but I'm not willing to unite under the EU, at least not in its current form. Unity is not universally good, it's important to know what you're uniting under. With that in mind, what do you want to gain from a united Europe?
      - renaudg 9y ago
        The unthinkability of war between its members (a millenial problem, solved for 70 years now), for starters ? Addressing inherently regional/global issues like environmental ones at the appropriate level ? Having the clout of a 300 million people market in trade negotiations with China/India/the US ? Gigantic economies of scale through common legislative work and a single set of consumer/safety regulations for companies to follow across a huge addressable market ? "greater (bilateral) cooperation" just won't give you that. Creating a higher entity is the only way that makes sense past a certain level of complexity. The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..") The truth is that while no organisation is perfect (is Westminster perfect?), and with the assumption (a difficult one to make these days) that you are actually aware of how the EU works, there are a very few other forms than the current one the EU could have ended up in.
        ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "The unthinkability of war between its members" A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE. The EU is far from the only organisation with widespread European membership. Here are three of the most important non-EU organisations that affect policy in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO It's worth remembering that the EU only really found it's current form in 1992. There were earlier agreements that formed the basis of the EU, but it changed considerably after the Maastricht Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty > "The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")" Only for the lazy. I simply don't agree with how the EU is run. I'd much rather stay as a member of the Council of Europe than any group that dictates fiscal policy. You can see how well that's worked out for the Greeks, burdened with debts they can't pay for the benefit of European bankers (the bailouts were a bait and switch move, the Greeks got a small percentage of the total funds). The EU will become increasingly focused around the Eurozone, and policies that suit the Eurozone. We may lose some financial benefits from leaving the EU now, but it'd be far harder to leave as time went on, and more power was centralised in Brussels.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Do modern Italians share any more heritage with the Romans than any other European? Europe is pretty prominent.
  - prodmerc 9y ago
    Do Americans, Canadians or Australians?
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      Given colonials came from Europe, yes..
- Findeton 9y ago
  You are being downvoted, but I am from Spain, which you can consider it was the superpower before England, and looking at what Spain is right now, you are right on the money. England/UK won't become the superpower they were before, just like Spain won't either. Yes, they'll be okay, they have survived through worse, but that's it.
  - allendoerfer 9y ago
    But Spain is part of the leading regional power and in a military union with the current superpower, while England decided to leave and try on its own. Even from a "wanting-to-be-a-superpower"-perspective, Brexit is wrong.
hardlianotion 9y ago
Yeah, I didn't get it either.
crc32 9y ago
Well what is the analogy? If you're saying the UK is in a position analogous to that of a "colony" of the EU then it is your reading of history that is bizarre.
tluyben2 9y ago
prodmerc is right and for the UK this is worse: somehow people in the UK still seem to think they own the world. I live in Spain but I am from the Netherlands, both world powers of the past and I do not see that misplaced air of grandeur there.

You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.

by krona 9y ago

You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.

prodmerc 9y ago

Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.

coldtea 9y ago
Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "I like the idea of a united Europe" I like the idea of greater cooperation across Europe, but I'm not willing to unite under the EU, at least not in its current form. Unity is not universally good, it's important to know what you're uniting under. With that in mind, what do you want to gain from a united Europe?
    - renaudg 9y ago
      The unthinkability of war between its members (a millenial problem, solved for 70 years now), for starters ? Addressing inherently regional/global issues like environmental ones at the appropriate level ? Having the clout of a 300 million people market in trade negotiations with China/India/the US ? Gigantic economies of scale through common legislative work and a single set of consumer/safety regulations for companies to follow across a huge addressable market ? "greater (bilateral) cooperation" just won't give you that. Creating a higher entity is the only way that makes sense past a certain level of complexity. The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..") The truth is that while no organisation is perfect (is Westminster perfect?), and with the assumption (a difficult one to make these days) that you are actually aware of how the EU works, there are a very few other forms than the current one the EU could have ended up in.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "The unthinkability of war between its members" A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE. The EU is far from the only organisation with widespread European membership. Here are three of the most important non-EU organisations that affect policy in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO It's worth remembering that the EU only really found it's current form in 1992. There were earlier agreements that formed the basis of the EU, but it changed considerably after the Maastricht Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty > "The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")" Only for the lazy. I simply don't agree with how the EU is run. I'd much rather stay as a member of the Council of Europe than any group that dictates fiscal policy. You can see how well that's worked out for the Greeks, burdened with debts they can't pay for the benefit of European bankers (the bailouts were a bait and switch move, the Greeks got a small percentage of the total funds). The EU will become increasingly focused around the Eurozone, and policies that suit the Eurozone. We may lose some financial benefits from leaving the EU now, but it'd be far harder to leave as time went on, and more power was centralised in Brussels.
Chris2048 9y ago
Do modern Italians share any more heritage with the Romans than any other European? Europe is pretty prominent.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  Do Americans, Canadians or Australians?
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    Given colonials came from Europe, yes..
Findeton 9y ago
You are being downvoted, but I am from Spain, which you can consider it was the superpower before England, and looking at what Spain is right now, you are right on the money. England/UK won't become the superpower they were before, just like Spain won't either. Yes, they'll be okay, they have survived through worse, but that's it.
- allendoerfer 9y ago
  But Spain is part of the leading regional power and in a military union with the current superpower, while England decided to leave and try on its own. Even from a "wanting-to-be-a-superpower"-perspective, Brexit is wrong.

hardlianotion 9y ago

Yeah, I didn't get it either.

crc32 9y ago

Well what is the analogy? If you're saying the UK is in a position analogous to that of a "colony" of the EU then it is your reading of history that is bizarre.

tluyben2 9y ago

prodmerc is right and for the UK this is worse: somehow people in the UK still seem to think they own the world. I live in Spain but I am from the Netherlands, both world powers of the past and I do not see that misplaced air of grandeur there.