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Just stop with the history. Just fucking stop. England isn't a global superpower, it doesn't have colonies, it doesn't have the population to compete with supe

Just stop with the history. Just fucking stop. England isn't a global superpower, it doesn't have colonies, it doesn't have the population to compete with superpowers, its overseas territories are a money drain, and there's nothing of value being made in the UK that isn't being made in the US, China or the EU. The recession will be hard. It was a stupid decision made by stupid people. Hopefully things will normalize in 4 decades.

krona 9y ago
You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
    - prodmerc 9y ago
      Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "I like the idea of a united Europe" I like the idea of greater cooperation across Europe, but I'm not willing to unite under the EU, at least not in its current form. Unity is not universally good, it's important to know what you're uniting under. With that in mind, what do you want to gain from a united Europe?
        renaudg 9y ago
        The unthinkability of war between its members (a millenial problem, solved for 70 years now), for starters ? Addressing inherently regional/global issues like environmental ones at the appropriate level ? Having the clout of a 300 million people market in trade negotiations with China/India/the US ? Gigantic economies of scale through common legislative work and a single set of consumer/safety regulations for companies to follow across a huge addressable market ? "greater (bilateral) cooperation" just won't give you that. Creating a higher entity is the only way that makes sense past a certain level of complexity. The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..") The truth is that while no organisation is perfect (is Westminster perfect?), and with the assumption (a difficult one to make these days) that you are actually aware of how the EU works, there are a very few other forms than the current one the EU could have ended up in.
        ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "The unthinkability of war between its members" A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE. The EU is far from the only organisation with widespread European membership. Here are three of the most important non-EU organisations that affect policy in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO It's worth remembering that the EU only really found it's current form in 1992. There were earlier agreements that formed the basis of the EU, but it changed considerably after the Maastricht Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty > "The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")" Only for the lazy. I simply don't agree with how the EU is run. I'd much rather stay as a member of the Council of Europe than any group that dictates fiscal policy. You can see how well that's worked out for the Greeks, burdened with debts they can't pay for the benefit of European bankers (the bailouts were a bait and switch move, the Greeks got a small percentage of the total funds). The EU will become increasingly focused around the Eurozone, and policies that suit the Eurozone. We may lose some financial benefits from leaving the EU now, but it'd be far harder to leave as time went on, and more power was centralised in Brussels.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    Do modern Italians share any more heritage with the Romans than any other European? Europe is pretty prominent.
    - prodmerc 9y ago
      Do Americans, Canadians or Australians?
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        Given colonials came from Europe, yes..
  - Findeton 9y ago
    You are being downvoted, but I am from Spain, which you can consider it was the superpower before England, and looking at what Spain is right now, you are right on the money. England/UK won't become the superpower they were before, just like Spain won't either. Yes, they'll be okay, they have survived through worse, but that's it.
    - allendoerfer 9y ago
      But Spain is part of the leading regional power and in a military union with the current superpower, while England decided to leave and try on its own. Even from a "wanting-to-be-a-superpower"-perspective, Brexit is wrong.
- hardlianotion 9y ago
  Yeah, I didn't get it either.
- crc32 9y ago
  Well what is the analogy? If you're saying the UK is in a position analogous to that of a "colony" of the EU then it is your reading of history that is bizarre.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  prodmerc is right and for the UK this is worse: somehow people in the UK still seem to think they own the world. I live in Spain but I am from the Netherlands, both world powers of the past and I do not see that misplaced air of grandeur there.
whazor 9y ago
Not trying to contradict your argument, but I was thinking the same... What does UK produce uniquely, and so far I have come up with airplane engines.
- nolok 9y ago
  Not uniquely. Made in similar level in the US and the EU, and China is putting a lot of effort in getting there too. Plenty of sources, but first ones to come were "Global Top 4 Aircraft Engine Manufacturers - Strategic Factor Analysis Summary (SFAS) Framework Analysis - 2015 Pratt & Whitney, GE Aviation, Rolls-Royce, Safran". Don't get me wrong, Uk is top notch there with Rolls Royce, and they're not a manufacturer aircraft maker would want to ignore being for price nor performance, but it's not something we would lose or need to rebuild if the UK were to suddenly fall into a vortex or something.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  You could easily make that more broad, i.e. what does country X produce that others do not? As for the article, speaking as someone from the UK, as far as I'm concerned the UK did a deal with the devil back in the 80s, focusing on the fake prosperity of the financial services industry (gambling on markets is ultimately a waste of effort) in place of growth in the productive economy (manufacturing industries were neglected for decades). If Brexit means the government is forced to diversify and not rely so heavily on financial services it could be a very good thing for the UK. There will certainly be challenges in changing the economy if we leave the European single market (I can't see hard Brexit happening anyway, there's very likely to be some form of compromise), but I'll not be crying over lost banker jobs, they can be someone else's problem now.
  - krona 9y ago
    As someone close enough to London to be exposed to the ridiculous salaries on offer in all areas of finance, I couldn't agree more. I think it's sad that people with a PhDs in physics/mathematics seem more likely to end up spending his/her time optimizing my car insurance premium than solving real problems.

krona 9y ago

You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.

prodmerc 9y ago
Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
  - prodmerc 9y ago
    Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      > "I like the idea of a united Europe" I like the idea of greater cooperation across Europe, but I'm not willing to unite under the EU, at least not in its current form. Unity is not universally good, it's important to know what you're uniting under. With that in mind, what do you want to gain from a united Europe?
      - renaudg 9y ago
        The unthinkability of war between its members (a millenial problem, solved for 70 years now), for starters ? Addressing inherently regional/global issues like environmental ones at the appropriate level ? Having the clout of a 300 million people market in trade negotiations with China/India/the US ? Gigantic economies of scale through common legislative work and a single set of consumer/safety regulations for companies to follow across a huge addressable market ? "greater (bilateral) cooperation" just won't give you that. Creating a higher entity is the only way that makes sense past a certain level of complexity. The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..") The truth is that while no organisation is perfect (is Westminster perfect?), and with the assumption (a difficult one to make these days) that you are actually aware of how the EU works, there are a very few other forms than the current one the EU could have ended up in.
        ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "The unthinkability of war between its members" A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE. The EU is far from the only organisation with widespread European membership. Here are three of the most important non-EU organisations that affect policy in Europe: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_an... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO It's worth remembering that the EU only really found it's current form in 1992. There were earlier agreements that formed the basis of the EU, but it changed considerably after the Maastricht Treaty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty > "The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")" Only for the lazy. I simply don't agree with how the EU is run. I'd much rather stay as a member of the Council of Europe than any group that dictates fiscal policy. You can see how well that's worked out for the Greeks, burdened with debts they can't pay for the benefit of European bankers (the bailouts were a bait and switch move, the Greeks got a small percentage of the total funds). The EU will become increasingly focused around the Eurozone, and policies that suit the Eurozone. We may lose some financial benefits from leaving the EU now, but it'd be far harder to leave as time went on, and more power was centralised in Brussels.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Do modern Italians share any more heritage with the Romans than any other European? Europe is pretty prominent.
  - prodmerc 9y ago
    Do Americans, Canadians or Australians?
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      Given colonials came from Europe, yes..
- Findeton 9y ago
  You are being downvoted, but I am from Spain, which you can consider it was the superpower before England, and looking at what Spain is right now, you are right on the money. England/UK won't become the superpower they were before, just like Spain won't either. Yes, they'll be okay, they have survived through worse, but that's it.
  - allendoerfer 9y ago
    But Spain is part of the leading regional power and in a military union with the current superpower, while England decided to leave and try on its own. Even from a "wanting-to-be-a-superpower"-perspective, Brexit is wrong.
hardlianotion 9y ago
Yeah, I didn't get it either.
crc32 9y ago
Well what is the analogy? If you're saying the UK is in a position analogous to that of a "colony" of the EU then it is your reading of history that is bizarre.
tluyben2 9y ago
prodmerc is right and for the UK this is worse: somehow people in the UK still seem to think they own the world. I live in Spain but I am from the Netherlands, both world powers of the past and I do not see that misplaced air of grandeur there.

whazor 9y ago

Not trying to contradict your argument, but I was thinking the same... What does UK produce uniquely, and so far I have come up with airplane engines.

nolok 9y ago
Not uniquely. Made in similar level in the US and the EU, and China is putting a lot of effort in getting there too. Plenty of sources, but first ones to come were "Global Top 4 Aircraft Engine Manufacturers - Strategic Factor Analysis Summary (SFAS) Framework Analysis - 2015 Pratt & Whitney, GE Aviation, Rolls-Royce, Safran". Don't get me wrong, Uk is top notch there with Rolls Royce, and they're not a manufacturer aircraft maker would want to ignore being for price nor performance, but it's not something we would lose or need to rebuild if the UK were to suddenly fall into a vortex or something.
ZenoArrow 9y ago
You could easily make that more broad, i.e. what does country X produce that others do not? As for the article, speaking as someone from the UK, as far as I'm concerned the UK did a deal with the devil back in the 80s, focusing on the fake prosperity of the financial services industry (gambling on markets is ultimately a waste of effort) in place of growth in the productive economy (manufacturing industries were neglected for decades). If Brexit means the government is forced to diversify and not rely so heavily on financial services it could be a very good thing for the UK. There will certainly be challenges in changing the economy if we leave the European single market (I can't see hard Brexit happening anyway, there's very likely to be some form of compromise), but I'll not be crying over lost banker jobs, they can be someone else's problem now.
- krona 9y ago
  As someone close enough to London to be exposed to the ridiculous salaries on offer in all areas of finance, I couldn't agree more. I think it's sad that people with a PhDs in physics/mathematics seem more likely to end up spending his/her time optimizing my car insurance premium than solving real problems.