It's different, because the HR manager closed the door by preemptively assuming Maria wasn't up for it. My point is that if the manager and the employee both fu

It's different, because the HR manager closed the door by preemptively assuming Maria wasn't up for it. My point is that if the manager and the employee both fully buy in to the possibility of a productive future, that's a necessary (but certainly not sufficient) condition for success. In that case, some type of explicitly shared strategy for getting there is crucial. But yeah, if you, as the manager, have decided it's a lost cause, it's best to just go ahead and initiate the separation. In that case, I agree with the HR guy. And I certainly agree with you that in many instances, the PIP is a reflexive CYA move from management or HR.