10 ms·

No matter how you look at it, the UK loses. And most people don't give a fuck, they think Brexit is over.

mc32 9y ago
Do the hoi polloi care that the pariahs of the world are leaving and taking their lifestyles with them? These are the people who cause housing bubbles, their subsequent crashes, construction booms and crashes (Spain) Deutsche Bank holding Greek economy hostage, etc. I get it, they are a necessary ungood thing for the economies, but should the hoi polloi cry for them? But that's Bloomberg caring about the capitalists who would arbitrage your job in a heartbeat.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Banking is a pox on both our houses, but it's probably still preferable to have them in your city. Some of the money suck out off the real economy does end up with local business, after all. Like tailors, coke dealers, and prostitutes.
  - fredley 9y ago
    Many of my friends work in the classical music scene in London, which is one of the foremost in the world. With the banks is going a lot of the money for this sort of thing, and not just the big ticket stuff - the community outreach programmes and local festivals are usually first against the wall. It's a tragedy that will take years if not decades to recover from, but given how fucked everything else is too it's not getting much press.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      So, that was a scene that was on life support by banks. Either the society has to decide it wants classical music as a protected cultural good (and e.g. put it in government grants and subsidies) or the masses should (and e.g. pay for concerts and stuff). Apart from those things, I don't see it as any great tragedy for something that's neither of them to lose its bank-derived financing.
      - crc32 9y ago
        In your logic "life support by banks" = "pay for concerts and stuff". The dimension you are missing is spatial, in that this would now happen elsewhere from London, and the "externality" of non-banker Londerners being able to experience this, is the negative effect referred to by the OP.
        coldtea 9y ago
        >In your logic "life support by banks" = "pay for concerts and stuff". No, in my logic there are two distinct things: the public paying for concerts (and the public not caring) vs the public caring and supporting them itself. In the first case, it's just the banks buying some prestige by playing to supposed upper middle class preferences, and get some free publicity plus some tax exceptions for those sponsorships. >The dimension you are missing is spatial, in that this would now happen elsewhere from London, and the "externality" of non-banker Londerners being able to experience this, is the negative effect referred to by the OP. So? If the Londoners didn't care for those events enough to support them themselves in the first place, why would they have a problem now that foreigners, and not themselves, will get to "experience" those?
        fredley 9y ago
        No Classical music makes money, it does not support itself anywhere. It is a charitable cause.
        allendoerfer 9y ago
        Banks do it, because high-paid workers want to live in a culturally rich city. That's also why cities invest in operas, it raises tax income. Same in Frankfurt. Cities, banks and the general public have the same interests here. Once the banks leave, the general public and the city loses.
    - matt4077 9y ago
      Yes, of course. Sorry for the cheap cliché about bankers, when they, both as customers and through their firms' support do indeed support many worthy causes. I hope the cultural scene in London won't be hit too hard–they must have been among the strongest supporters of continued EU membership, considering how international it is. Maybe rent prices at least drop a bit to compensate. Or Britain&The EU find a way out of this misery once the consequences sink in.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Housing bubbles are caused by people getting loans they can't support, and the incentives aligned so that the people approving the loans don't care whether the borrower is able to pay it or not.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    It's a good example of a problem that government regulation should solve. A market doesn't always regulate itself.
krona 9y ago
The Brits said the same in 1776 about one of its colonies.
- prodmerc 9y ago
  Just stop with the history. Just fucking stop. England isn't a global superpower, it doesn't have colonies, it doesn't have the population to compete with superpowers, its overseas territories are a money drain, and there's nothing of value being made in the UK that isn't being made in the US, China or the EU. The recession will be hard. It was a stupid decision made by stupid people. Hopefully things will normalize in 4 decades.
  - krona 9y ago
    You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.
    - prodmerc 9y ago
      Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
        prodmerc 9y ago
        Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).
coldtea 9y ago
>No matter how you look at it, the UK loses. Only short term, and only if we just look at first order effects. In fact, it's too early to tell. Let's check back in 10 years.
- mobiplayer 9y ago
  What makes you think 10 years is not short term? Last crisis, that we're still recovering and suffering consequences (arguably Brexit is one) from, started 9 years ago. What makes you think the UK can "win" anything in 10 years if it goes down the Brexit path? or 20 years for that matter, feel free to move the goal posts around. I'm curious.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "Last crisis, that we're still recovering and suffering consequences" The last crisis was extended by the actions of the government. Quantative easing to boost the wealth of the private banking sector + austerity in the public sector. You can't save your way out of a recession, but if you are going to spend your way out of it, the money should end up with people who are willing to spend it in productive ways. As for Brexit, what's your main economic concern? Imports? Exports? The domestic market?
    - gcb0 9y ago
      every company is already leaving. IT has the blue collars (cheap engineers, sales, support, it) in Ireland and they are staying no matter what (zero tax ftw) while all the expensive ppl who refuses Ireland relocation were in london. but if London is not EU, now it makes everything too complicated. France already started to glob startups. Germany got two big fortune 500 and Switzerland another. it's a matter of time until they all move. and take all the service cascade with them. so if you're afraid of crisis getting worse by fleeing investment, there you have it.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        > "IT has the blue collars (cheap engineers, sales, support, it) in Ireland" That was the case before Brexit, was it not? Companies like Google and Facebook had their European headquarters in Ireland before the Brexit referendum was announced. > "Germany got two big fortune 500 and Switzerland another." Interesting that you bring up an example linked to Switzerland, which isn't in the EU (it's not even part of the EEA). Despite that, it does have access to the European single market, something that some European bureaucrats are classing as 'impossible' for the UK post-Brexit. Let's wait and see. > "it's a matter of time until they all move." That's what's known as hyperbole. The UK has a large skilled/educated workforce with a strong work ethic. If incentives are made to mitigate against downsides of being out of the EU then I don't see every company leaving, and the ones that do leave will leave behind employees that they helped to train, ready for a competitor to make the most of.

mc32 9y ago

Do the hoi polloi care that the pariahs of the world are leaving and taking their lifestyles with them? These are the people who cause housing bubbles, their subsequent crashes, construction booms and crashes (Spain) Deutsche Bank holding Greek economy hostage, etc. I get it, they are a necessary ungood thing for the economies, but should the hoi polloi cry for them? But that's Bloomberg caring about the capitalists who would arbitrage your job in a heartbeat.

matt4077 9y ago
Banking is a pox on both our houses, but it's probably still preferable to have them in your city. Some of the money suck out off the real economy does end up with local business, after all. Like tailors, coke dealers, and prostitutes.
- fredley 9y ago
  Many of my friends work in the classical music scene in London, which is one of the foremost in the world. With the banks is going a lot of the money for this sort of thing, and not just the big ticket stuff - the community outreach programmes and local festivals are usually first against the wall. It's a tragedy that will take years if not decades to recover from, but given how fucked everything else is too it's not getting much press.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    So, that was a scene that was on life support by banks. Either the society has to decide it wants classical music as a protected cultural good (and e.g. put it in government grants and subsidies) or the masses should (and e.g. pay for concerts and stuff). Apart from those things, I don't see it as any great tragedy for something that's neither of them to lose its bank-derived financing.
    - crc32 9y ago
      In your logic "life support by banks" = "pay for concerts and stuff". The dimension you are missing is spatial, in that this would now happen elsewhere from London, and the "externality" of non-banker Londerners being able to experience this, is the negative effect referred to by the OP.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >In your logic "life support by banks" = "pay for concerts and stuff". No, in my logic there are two distinct things: the public paying for concerts (and the public not caring) vs the public caring and supporting them itself. In the first case, it's just the banks buying some prestige by playing to supposed upper middle class preferences, and get some free publicity plus some tax exceptions for those sponsorships. >The dimension you are missing is spatial, in that this would now happen elsewhere from London, and the "externality" of non-banker Londerners being able to experience this, is the negative effect referred to by the OP. So? If the Londoners didn't care for those events enough to support them themselves in the first place, why would they have a problem now that foreigners, and not themselves, will get to "experience" those?
        fredley 9y ago
        No Classical music makes money, it does not support itself anywhere. It is a charitable cause.
        allendoerfer 9y ago
        Banks do it, because high-paid workers want to live in a culturally rich city. That's also why cities invest in operas, it raises tax income. Same in Frankfurt. Cities, banks and the general public have the same interests here. Once the banks leave, the general public and the city loses.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    Yes, of course. Sorry for the cheap cliché about bankers, when they, both as customers and through their firms' support do indeed support many worthy causes. I hope the cultural scene in London won't be hit too hard–they must have been among the strongest supporters of continued EU membership, considering how international it is. Maybe rent prices at least drop a bit to compensate. Or Britain&The EU find a way out of this misery once the consequences sink in.
literallycancer 9y ago
Housing bubbles are caused by people getting loans they can't support, and the incentives aligned so that the people approving the loans don't care whether the borrower is able to pay it or not.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  It's a good example of a problem that government regulation should solve. A market doesn't always regulate itself.

krona 9y ago

The Brits said the same in 1776 about one of its colonies.

prodmerc 9y ago
Just stop with the history. Just fucking stop. England isn't a global superpower, it doesn't have colonies, it doesn't have the population to compete with superpowers, its overseas territories are a money drain, and there's nothing of value being made in the UK that isn't being made in the US, China or the EU. The recession will be hard. It was a stupid decision made by stupid people. Hopefully things will normalize in 4 decades.
- krona 9y ago
  You failed to get the analogy. You can't really stop history, but people like you would rather be ignorant of it, it seems.
  - prodmerc 9y ago
    Just think how annoying it would be if Italy kept going on about being the Roman Empire. I'm tired of all the "England this, England that". Yes, there's an amazing history, but you can't repeat it. Look at the world today for God's sake.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Looking at history can also tell you that the world as it is today wont be such forever -- or even 10 years down the line.
      - prodmerc 9y ago
        Yes, I just can't see how the UK will rise up and "become great again". That's my problem, all I see is an ex-empire clinging to the past. The history is lovely, the Royal Navy was unmatched for a while - nothing lasts forever though. And with people like May, with their imbecilic policies and ideas, leading it? Please... Furthermore, I like the idea of a united Europe, and I'd hate if the UK would allocate resources to undermine that (if Russia can, the UK certainly can).

coldtea 9y ago

>No matter how you look at it, the UK loses. Only short term, and only if we just look at first order effects. In fact, it's too early to tell. Let's check back in 10 years.

mobiplayer 9y ago
What makes you think 10 years is not short term? Last crisis, that we're still recovering and suffering consequences (arguably Brexit is one) from, started 9 years ago. What makes you think the UK can "win" anything in 10 years if it goes down the Brexit path? or 20 years for that matter, feel free to move the goal posts around. I'm curious.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "Last crisis, that we're still recovering and suffering consequences" The last crisis was extended by the actions of the government. Quantative easing to boost the wealth of the private banking sector + austerity in the public sector. You can't save your way out of a recession, but if you are going to spend your way out of it, the money should end up with people who are willing to spend it in productive ways. As for Brexit, what's your main economic concern? Imports? Exports? The domestic market?
  - gcb0 9y ago
    every company is already leaving. IT has the blue collars (cheap engineers, sales, support, it) in Ireland and they are staying no matter what (zero tax ftw) while all the expensive ppl who refuses Ireland relocation were in london. but if London is not EU, now it makes everything too complicated. France already started to glob startups. Germany got two big fortune 500 and Switzerland another. it's a matter of time until they all move. and take all the service cascade with them. so if you're afraid of crisis getting worse by fleeing investment, there you have it.
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      > "IT has the blue collars (cheap engineers, sales, support, it) in Ireland" That was the case before Brexit, was it not? Companies like Google and Facebook had their European headquarters in Ireland before the Brexit referendum was announced. > "Germany got two big fortune 500 and Switzerland another." Interesting that you bring up an example linked to Switzerland, which isn't in the EU (it's not even part of the EEA). Despite that, it does have access to the European single market, something that some European bureaucrats are classing as 'impossible' for the UK post-Brexit. Let's wait and see. > "it's a matter of time until they all move." That's what's known as hyperbole. The UK has a large skilled/educated workforce with a strong work ethic. If incentives are made to mitigate against downsides of being out of the EU then I don't see every company leaving, and the ones that do leave will leave behind employees that they helped to train, ready for a competitor to make the most of.