22 ms·

This is truly an old meme. Replace the word automation with: horseless carriage, assembly line, ice makers, airplanes, digital computers, etc... I'm sure it's

by ty_a 9y ago

This is truly an old meme. Replace the word automation with: horseless carriage, assembly line, ice makers, airplanes, digital computers, etc... I'm sure it's entirely different this time though.

mistermann 9y ago
Wait....so job losses are not due to offshoring, it's due to automation. Now, it's not due to automation, it's due to....what?
- Jabanga 9y ago
  But there is no reduction in the aggregate number of jobs.. Of course jobs are destroyed and created as the economy changes. That's always been the case and always will be. But the net effect of automation is more wealth being generated, which shifts the demand curve for labour to the right, causing wages to increases.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    > But there is no reduction in the aggregate number of jobs What about the median wage? > which shifts the demand curve for labour to the right, causing wages to increases Are you suggesting automation has resulted in most of the new wealth being broadly distributed to workers rather than concentrated in the top 10%?
    - Jabanga 9y ago
      Globally, median wages are increasing at their fastest rate in history [1]. Wage growth for the middle class has stagnated in the US, but not nearly as much as some people (myself included, until recently) believe [2]. The primary cause of this slowdown in wage growth is slowing productivity growth [3], while the major secondary cause is growing income disparity. Growing income disparity can be traced [4] directly to growth in regulatory restrictions that impede the free market, and not automation or technology. [1] http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-global-war-on-poverty http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-glo... [2] https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where-has-all-the-income-gone https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where... [3] https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stagnation/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stag... [4] https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-the-1-earn-so-much-and-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-t...
      - mistermann 9y ago
        1) Likely not relevant, apples and oranges. 2) Wage growth ignores the unemployed. 3) Ignores unemployment. "Most importantly, the growth in the average real wage is largely determined by improvements in labor productivity, output per worker hour." 4) Partially true (I very much agree with the protectionist immigration point), but there are many issues with that article as well.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    The trick is, what kind of jobs are being destroyed and created. With current wave of automation, unskilled jobs are being destroyed, and specialized jobs are being created. The people leaving the former can't access the latter.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
> I'm sure it's entirely different this time though. Of course it is. Which is obvious if you look at how automation before differs from automation today. And I'm going over the obvious memes now, but: > Replace the word automation with: horseless carriage Yes, and replace the word "human" with horse", and tell me the invention did not have a dramatic impact on the population that was doing the work.
- Jabanga 9y ago
  >Yes, and replace the word "human" with horse", and tell me the invention did not have a dramatic impact on the population that was doing the work. Humans are incomparable to horses. Horses cannot buy automobiles. They do not have property rights, or the capability to utilize them.

by ty_a 9y ago

This is truly an old meme. Replace the word automation with: horseless carriage, assembly line, ice makers, airplanes, digital computers, etc... I'm sure it's entirely different this time though.

mistermann 9y ago

Wait....so job losses are not due to offshoring, it's due to automation. Now, it's not due to automation, it's due to....what?

Jabanga 9y ago
But there is no reduction in the aggregate number of jobs.. Of course jobs are destroyed and created as the economy changes. That's always been the case and always will be. But the net effect of automation is more wealth being generated, which shifts the demand curve for labour to the right, causing wages to increases.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > But there is no reduction in the aggregate number of jobs What about the median wage? > which shifts the demand curve for labour to the right, causing wages to increases Are you suggesting automation has resulted in most of the new wealth being broadly distributed to workers rather than concentrated in the top 10%?
  - Jabanga 9y ago
    Globally, median wages are increasing at their fastest rate in history [1]. Wage growth for the middle class has stagnated in the US, but not nearly as much as some people (myself included, until recently) believe [2]. The primary cause of this slowdown in wage growth is slowing productivity growth [3], while the major secondary cause is growing income disparity. Growing income disparity can be traced [4] directly to growth in regulatory restrictions that impede the free market, and not automation or technology. [1] http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-global-war-on-poverty http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2016/0207/Progress-in-the-glo... [2] https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where-has-all-the-income-gone https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/the-region/where... [3] https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stagnation/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stag... [4] https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-the-1-earn-so-much-and-what-to-do-about-it/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-t...
    - mistermann 9y ago
      1) Likely not relevant, apples and oranges. 2) Wage growth ignores the unemployed. 3) Ignores unemployment. "Most importantly, the growth in the average real wage is largely determined by improvements in labor productivity, output per worker hour." 4) Partially true (I very much agree with the protectionist immigration point), but there are many issues with that article as well.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  The trick is, what kind of jobs are being destroyed and created. With current wave of automation, unskilled jobs are being destroyed, and specialized jobs are being created. The people leaving the former can't access the latter.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

> I'm sure it's entirely different this time though. Of course it is. Which is obvious if you look at how automation before differs from automation today. And I'm going over the obvious memes now, but: > Replace the word automation with: horseless carriage Yes, and replace the word "human" with horse", and tell me the invention did not have a dramatic impact on the population that was doing the work.

Jabanga 9y ago
>Yes, and replace the word "human" with horse", and tell me the invention did not have a dramatic impact on the population that was doing the work. Humans are incomparable to horses. Horses cannot buy automobiles. They do not have property rights, or the capability to utilize them.