5 ms·

JSX is kinda nice, once you get used to it. Primarily because it's just HTML and/or your custom components, with arbitrary code execution in { } blocks.

by vosper 9y ago

nilved 9y ago
From that description it sounds nightmarish.
- eropple 9y ago
  That "arbitrary code execution" is functional viewmodel stuff. It makes complete sense once you've spent more than an hour with it. (This is also why "templating languages" in PHP were a special kind of foolish; PHP is a templating language.)
  - krapp 9y ago
    >This is also why "templating languages" in PHP were a special kind of foolish; PHP is a templating language. Any PHP project of any reasonable complexity will either use an existing "templating language" (by which you probably mean a framework) or be forced to create some sloppy, ad-hoc version of one, because while yes, PHP is a templating language/framework, it's also a terrible one.
    - eropple 9y ago
      In my time with PHP, I never found a PHP templating language better or more effective than using PHP itself. At the time, the big ones were Smarty and Twig; both are stump-dumb tools designed to make easy things annoying and hard things impossible. Emitting HTML is no different from any other functional programming task. State in, HTML out. (You had to be a little clever because you had to ob_start/ob_get_buffers/ob_end, but whatever. Still better than the alternatives.)
      - krapp 9y ago
        >both are stump-dumb tools designed to make easy things annoying and hard things impossible. What hard things, specifically? I've used Twig a lot and never found it to get in the way of anything else I was trying to do. >You had to be a little clever because you had to ob_start/ob_get_buffers/ob_end, but whatever. By the time you have some general abstraction to push "state" into and get "HTML" out of, and deal with output buffering, header management, etc, you've started building an ad-hoc framework.
        eropple 9y ago
        It's been a while, but I found Twig (and most mustachealikes) just super confining. I don't want to go write a function to transform my state and then expose it to Twig, I want to write a function. (They are pure functions, of course, because...well, competence, y'know?) Just stuff like that. It all gets built to PHP, but with limiters I don't need and (IME) teams that understand functional (in the pure-function sense, not the typeclasses-and-shitting-on-people-who-don't-write-Haskell sense) programming don't either. > By the time you have some general abstraction Sure. It's about a dozen lines long. And the language is the actual language I'm working with, not something that needs its own parser to give me less functionality in the spirit of mollyguarding on behalf of people who make mistakes of classes I categorically refuse to allow in my systems. (Please don't mistake this as me saying "I don't write bugs." I write many, many bugs. But I structure programs such that some bugs are very, very hard not to make obvious and to avoid.) For similar reasons, this is why almost all of my web stuff these days uses a Node backend and a React/JSX or React Native frontend. Consistency across the whole thing, buttressed by tools that encourage good practice without chopping you off at the knees.
        krapp 9y ago
        >And the language is the actual language I'm working with, not something that needs its own parser to give me less functionality in the spirit of mollyguarding on behalf of people who make mistakes of classes I categorically refuse to allow in my systems. Ok. But to be fair, Twig's parser is extensible, whereas PHP's isn't. And it lets you use array shorthand in PHP versions that don't support it (which is not as much of a problem as it used to be, but to me, more than worth never having to type "Array()" again.) Have you tried the XHP functionality in Hack? It treats XML as objects and understands it in context (which is something PHP should do natively, but can't.) It seems to solve many of the footgun problems that PHP template languages do, within native code.
paulddraper 9y ago
Apples and oranges. (Or fruits and oranges?) JSX can only do XML; Jinja is for arbitrary text.
- andrewingram 9y ago
  Not quite true. Just because JSX resembles XML, it doesn't mean it can only output XML. Plenty of non-XML render targets exist for React: canvas, terminal, Sketch (I believe the file format is JSON). The primary restriction is that your output can be modelled as a tree in some way, and what you find is that nearly everything falls into this category. I don't know if anyone's done it yet, but a plain-text renderer is certainly possible, I imagine it would be very similar to a terminal renderer.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    If you're saying that JSX can do more than XML because you can transform from XML into other things, then yes, that's trivially true.
    - andrewingram 9y ago
      No, I'm saying that JSX isn't XML, it just very loosely resembles it. It can't even naively output XML because it (currently) mandates a single root node, and XML has a doctype node as a sibling to that. JSX transpiles down to a tree of function calls, it's literally nothing more than that, the only time it might be considered XML is in the final rendered content. Syntactically, JSX isn't even valid XML.
deckar01 9y ago
When I see JSX in a project I can't help but notice how similar it is to PHP pages that inline all the applications logic with the template making it unreadable. When it comes to react I think JSX is even worse than PHP when javascript objects are passed in and out of JSX directives. It is so hard to debug, and a nightmare to read.
- eropple 9y ago
  This is why the React Inspector exists, and it's very very good at what it does.
- captainmuon 9y ago
  That is true, but it is somewhat alleviated by the fact that react restricts what you can (or should) do in a component. A good component has one-way data flow and behaves like a pure function (modulo some AJAX, or interfacing with non-React code, but you can isolate that pretty nicely). Yes, it is not enforces, and JSX can be a footgun. Also, the separation of concerns is along a different line (not markup / behavior / style, but between components. If you want to "theme" your website, its kind of hard). I'm not a diehard functional fan, but I find if you go with it it can actually be pretty maintainable and clean. Tooling is also very good, especially with TypeScript (TSX).
  - eropple 9y ago
    TSX has kinda driven me nuts because react-redux connect doesn't seem to type cleanly. Has that improved?
    - captainmuon 9y ago
      I haven't tried redux with tyepscript yet. One thing that doesn't seem to be typed correctly is immutability-helpers (it catches some errors, but some stuff seems to be `any`). It is impressive though how often you have types when I wouldn't expect it.
- trumpownsyou 9y ago
eyelidlessness 9y ago
It's really not that, and I think the general perception that it is causes a lot of people to look at it with suspicion or reject it outright. JSX is a data structure with a syntax similar to XML. The angle brackets are quite similar to brackets around any other data structural literal in any other syntax. The tag names are references to either in-scope variables/constants (when capitalized), or references to a static set of HTML element names specified by React (when lowercase). This is different from HTML or even XML because they are evaluated at runtime (plain JSX->JS compilation) or validated at compile time (e.g. TypeScript). The attributes names are keys in the data structure's props, and the values are either static (if specified as string literals) or dynamic (if specified between curly braces). These too can be checked at runtime (with PropTypes) or at compile time (e.g. TypeScript). By specifying dynamic props (or conditional children), the component will re-render as the values change. I'm not aware of any other HTML-like or XML-like template language which functions the same way. Edit: I forgot to mention, dynamic props are also exactly JavaScript/JSX expressions. Basically JSX is a macro that turns the XML-like stuff into React API calls.

JSX is kinda nice, once you get used to it. Primarily because it's just HTML and/or your custom components, with arbitrary code execution in { } blocks.

by vosper 9y ago

JSX is kinda nice, once you get used to it. Primarily because it's just HTML and/or your custom components, with arbitrary code execution in { } blocks.

nilved 9y ago

From that description it sounds nightmarish.

eropple 9y ago
That "arbitrary code execution" is functional viewmodel stuff. It makes complete sense once you've spent more than an hour with it. (This is also why "templating languages" in PHP were a special kind of foolish; PHP is a templating language.)
- krapp 9y ago
  >This is also why "templating languages" in PHP were a special kind of foolish; PHP is a templating language. Any PHP project of any reasonable complexity will either use an existing "templating language" (by which you probably mean a framework) or be forced to create some sloppy, ad-hoc version of one, because while yes, PHP is a templating language/framework, it's also a terrible one.
  - eropple 9y ago
    In my time with PHP, I never found a PHP templating language better or more effective than using PHP itself. At the time, the big ones were Smarty and Twig; both are stump-dumb tools designed to make easy things annoying and hard things impossible. Emitting HTML is no different from any other functional programming task. State in, HTML out. (You had to be a little clever because you had to ob_start/ob_get_buffers/ob_end, but whatever. Still better than the alternatives.)
    - krapp 9y ago
      >both are stump-dumb tools designed to make easy things annoying and hard things impossible. What hard things, specifically? I've used Twig a lot and never found it to get in the way of anything else I was trying to do. >You had to be a little clever because you had to ob_start/ob_get_buffers/ob_end, but whatever. By the time you have some general abstraction to push "state" into and get "HTML" out of, and deal with output buffering, header management, etc, you've started building an ad-hoc framework.
      - eropple 9y ago
        It's been a while, but I found Twig (and most mustachealikes) just super confining. I don't want to go write a function to transform my state and then expose it to Twig, I want to write a function. (They are pure functions, of course, because...well, competence, y'know?) Just stuff like that. It all gets built to PHP, but with limiters I don't need and (IME) teams that understand functional (in the pure-function sense, not the typeclasses-and-shitting-on-people-who-don't-write-Haskell sense) programming don't either. > By the time you have some general abstraction Sure. It's about a dozen lines long. And the language is the actual language I'm working with, not something that needs its own parser to give me less functionality in the spirit of mollyguarding on behalf of people who make mistakes of classes I categorically refuse to allow in my systems. (Please don't mistake this as me saying "I don't write bugs." I write many, many bugs. But I structure programs such that some bugs are very, very hard not to make obvious and to avoid.) For similar reasons, this is why almost all of my web stuff these days uses a Node backend and a React/JSX or React Native frontend. Consistency across the whole thing, buttressed by tools that encourage good practice without chopping you off at the knees.
        krapp 9y ago
        >And the language is the actual language I'm working with, not something that needs its own parser to give me less functionality in the spirit of mollyguarding on behalf of people who make mistakes of classes I categorically refuse to allow in my systems. Ok. But to be fair, Twig's parser is extensible, whereas PHP's isn't. And it lets you use array shorthand in PHP versions that don't support it (which is not as much of a problem as it used to be, but to me, more than worth never having to type "Array()" again.) Have you tried the XHP functionality in Hack? It treats XML as objects and understands it in context (which is something PHP should do natively, but can't.) It seems to solve many of the footgun problems that PHP template languages do, within native code.

paulddraper 9y ago

Apples and oranges. (Or fruits and oranges?) JSX can only do XML; Jinja is for arbitrary text.

andrewingram 9y ago
Not quite true. Just because JSX resembles XML, it doesn't mean it can only output XML. Plenty of non-XML render targets exist for React: canvas, terminal, Sketch (I believe the file format is JSON). The primary restriction is that your output can be modelled as a tree in some way, and what you find is that nearly everything falls into this category. I don't know if anyone's done it yet, but a plain-text renderer is certainly possible, I imagine it would be very similar to a terminal renderer.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  If you're saying that JSX can do more than XML because you can transform from XML into other things, then yes, that's trivially true.
  - andrewingram 9y ago
    No, I'm saying that JSX isn't XML, it just very loosely resembles it. It can't even naively output XML because it (currently) mandates a single root node, and XML has a doctype node as a sibling to that. JSX transpiles down to a tree of function calls, it's literally nothing more than that, the only time it might be considered XML is in the final rendered content. Syntactically, JSX isn't even valid XML.

deckar01 9y ago

When I see JSX in a project I can't help but notice how similar it is to PHP pages that inline all the applications logic with the template making it unreadable. When it comes to react I think JSX is even worse than PHP when javascript objects are passed in and out of JSX directives. It is so hard to debug, and a nightmare to read.

eropple 9y ago
This is why the React Inspector exists, and it's very very good at what it does.
captainmuon 9y ago
That is true, but it is somewhat alleviated by the fact that react restricts what you can (or should) do in a component. A good component has one-way data flow and behaves like a pure function (modulo some AJAX, or interfacing with non-React code, but you can isolate that pretty nicely). Yes, it is not enforces, and JSX can be a footgun. Also, the separation of concerns is along a different line (not markup / behavior / style, but between components. If you want to "theme" your website, its kind of hard). I'm not a diehard functional fan, but I find if you go with it it can actually be pretty maintainable and clean. Tooling is also very good, especially with TypeScript (TSX).
- eropple 9y ago
  TSX has kinda driven me nuts because react-redux connect doesn't seem to type cleanly. Has that improved?
  - captainmuon 9y ago
    I haven't tried redux with tyepscript yet. One thing that doesn't seem to be typed correctly is immutability-helpers (it catches some errors, but some stuff seems to be `any`). It is impressive though how often you have types when I wouldn't expect it.
trumpownsyou 9y ago

eyelidlessness 9y ago

It's really not that, and I think the general perception that it is causes a lot of people to look at it with suspicion or reject it outright. JSX is a data structure with a syntax similar to XML. The angle brackets are quite similar to brackets around any other data structural literal in any other syntax. The tag names are references to either in-scope variables/constants (when capitalized), or references to a static set of HTML element names specified by React (when lowercase). This is different from HTML or even XML because they are evaluated at runtime (plain JSX->JS compilation) or validated at compile time (e.g. TypeScript). The attributes names are keys in the data structure's props, and the values are either static (if specified as string literals) or dynamic (if specified between curly braces). These too can be checked at runtime (with PropTypes) or at compile time (e.g. TypeScript). By specifying dynamic props (or conditional children), the component will re-render as the values change. I'm not aware of any other HTML-like or XML-like template language which functions the same way. Edit: I forgot to mention, dynamic props are also exactly JavaScript/JSX expressions. Basically JSX is a macro that turns the XML-like stuff into React API calls.