5 ms·

The Lawyer, the Addict

89 points by hvo 9y ago

sillysaurus3 9y ago
Of all the heartbreaking details of his story, the one that continues to haunt me is this: The history on his cellphone shows the last call he ever made was for work. Peter, vomiting, unable to sit up, slipping in and out of consciousness, had managed, somehow, to dial into a conference call.
- mylons 9y ago
  i just linked this quote to several people too. the next quote that really hit home was this one: "Over all, the results showed that about 21 percent of lawyers qualify as problem drinkers, while 28 percent struggle with mild or more serious depression and 19 percent struggle with anxiety." Because the percentages seem comparable in tech for engineers.
  - bobowzki 9y ago
    I wonder how this compares to physicians?
  - watwut 9y ago
    Do you have source for three tech claim? People around me don't seem to be that depressed nor alcoholic, but I don't work in SV.
    - Falling3 9y ago
      Depression is really not something you can necessarily glean from being around people, especially in an office environment. I imagine the same is largely true for alcoholism as well.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    I am always surprised how we are managing to make the workplace less and less healthy to the point that of causing severe health issues. Most people know this but it seems to be impossible to stop this trend. Especially lawyers, doctors and lot of tech people make good money and could afford to work less but instead kill themselves.
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  Came here to post that same quote. It's amazing to me how much, in a world of plenty, we are still able to wrap ourselves, and our identities, so much in work that we completely lose sight of why we started working in the first place.
- mysterypie 9y ago
  > vomiting, unable to sit up, slipping in and out of consciousness, had managed, somehow, to dial into a conference call. How would the writer know anything about how Peter was feeling when he dialed into the conference call? Maybe Peter was perfectly fine and lucid at that moment. The events may be very sad, but that quote is made up, or call it "dramatic license" to be more generous.
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    Medics probably got an accurate time of death, and one is able to extrapolate from that the time of his vomiting, which likely matched the time he made the call. Your comment is a little heartless.
    - mysterypie 9y ago
      Do you think the medics were able to extrapolate that he was "unable to sit up" at that moment? That he was "slipping in and out of consciousness" at that moment? If the writer (the ex-wife) had evidence she would have said so because it would have made the story more compelling. She could have said, for example, that the other callers on the conference call could hear him vomiting. But she didn't. I don't have a problem with dramatic license or artistic license; historical books and movies are full of scenes that no one witnessed. But when the grandparent of this thread said, "Of all the heartbreaking details of his story, the one that continues to haunt me", he seemed to believe that it happened just like that. I wanted to point out that the writer is inventing a scene -- it is not literally true.
      - simtel20 9y ago
        The junkies I've seen tend to have really poor sitting up skills while using. Extrapolating from that to a junkie who is overdosing seems straightforward and highly probable.
Steeeve 9y ago
Outside of the drug abuse, the lifestyle can be found in a good percentage of homes all over Palo Alto. Working 60+ hours/week for years on end(check), angry and threatening one minute, remorseful and generous the next (check), sustaining himself largely on fast food, snacks, coffee, ibuprofen and antacids (check), the last call he ever made was for work (likely), displayed no photos of his children or me in his office [because...] he didn’t want the partners to see him as “distracted by my family.” (yep). While this doesn't exist in every household it exists in a lot of them. Going for walks at dusk you can hear the household arguments spawned by this lifestyle. Not every house, every night. But they are common enough. Sometimes you just want to reach out and say "I understand" to the person in the house that's very obviously blowing up due to stress. What is less common is drug abuse. I don't know how people find the time for a drug addiction, alcohol addiction, or any other kind of addiction that isn't "overworking themselves" because that is very much a primary addiction. Silicon Valley is the 1950s Hollywood for techies. They come from all over the world to work with the best of the best, for a shot at something incredible. And much like Hollywood for actors, it ends up chewing up and eating more people than anybody outside the bubble realizes. There's a lot to be said for the area. All kinds of positives. But it's also a very destructive area at a very personal level. There is a lot of personal sacrifice happening at the altars of "educational opportunity", "changing the world", "better lifestyle for my family", and whatever other benefits people have talked themselves into believing that more money can provide for their families. My advice, and I should take it myself, is to recognize when you are breaking down and take a break. The world will get by for 2 more weeks without that one all-so-important feature that you're working on right now.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  "Silicon Valley is the 1950s Hollywood for techies. They come from all over the world to work with the best of the best, for a shot at something incredible. And much like Hollywood for actors, it ends up chewing up and eating more people than anybody outside the bubble realizes." 1. Let's keep things in perspective. 2. Actors Hollywood are usually good looking. That complicates the equation. 3. They say Washington is Hollywood for ugly people. 4. My point is the Social Experiment glamorized the whole industry. 5. Silicon Valley is not like Hollywood in any era. Not that that's a bad thing, but let's keep it real. Yes--money will make a man attractive, but it only goes so far. I see rich tech guys who just don't quite get it. They are dating way out of their league, and just come up frustrated. 6. And yes--I will get hammered for this. I could care less. I knew the Social Experiment would twist techies perspectives. Yes--work on that self-esteem, but be realistic. Mark was smart enough to marry someone who liked him before the billions. He should be giving TED talks on that very decision. Maybe his best decision?
throwaway908345 9y ago
"Peter battled his own brand of melancholy...he wasn’t someone who ever really felt happy. He had moments of being “not unhappy,”" This hit a bit too close to home. not quite as severe for me yet, as right now in those moments i hide it behind a facade of dry humor and try to be an optimist. I'm 25 and work in tech out here in SV, and have no current impulse for illegal drug use and only a light drinker. But, I admit there is a non-zero chance I could one day become Peter. Fuck. Me. - i need to take better care of myself.
Theodores 9y ago
I recently had to cope with a colleague that has chosen this route, this level of addiction is traumatic to see. Things had gone a long way from recreational and I had to have words with the enemy - HR - as a thing I felt compelled to do. I have friends that take things recreationally for them to not go down the hell hole my former workmate chose, however, from reading the article I can see that they might be immune, they have shifted to sociable alcoholism and could shift over to the full on disease of addiction much like the subject of this article. Maybe mid life crisis could be the mechanism and not some childhood trauma thing. The opioid crisis has been an expensive mistake, there is too much blurring of prescription and street drugs in all these stories.
thinkcomp 9y ago
I have direct and very recent experience with the patent group at the firm mentioned in the article (WSGR) because my company is suing their client, but I think the following needs to be stated about all law firms. True, law is an incredibly stressful profession. True, it selects for competitive people. True, the hours can be crushing. But few other professions reward individuals for lying so much. Patent lawyers and most other lawyers lie day in, day out. Often their job cannot be done without lying. They lie to clients (overbilling), colleagues (opposing counsel), judges at every level, and as the article points out, their families. Often the lies are in print. It's essentially a prerequisite to rationalize these lies as "argumentation" or viewpoint, but often they're just lies. For most people who are not complete sociopaths, lying takes a toll. It's not at all surprising to see that it can add up in frightening ways.
- drtillberg 9y ago
  Lawyering done with a high degree of skill and latitude involves none of these things. I recognize the critique, at least from a distance, as a dysfunction caused by practicing in a high-stakes environment without the ability to persuade clients to take reasonable and just positions. Once upon a time bar association had fee schedules to ensure that one would not find any particular representation so lucrative as to apply pressure of this kind. I also will say that law schools do not necessarily encourage budding lawyers to cabin their argumentation, which unfortunately promotes a 'say anything' approach by younger lawyers like you describe. It's effective only in the short term.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
"One of the first things I learned is that there is little research on lawyers and drug abuse." Or really any other profession. I work in politics, in DC, and drug abuse is rampant. Absolutely horrible. I've found people snorting pills in the bathroom, steps away from the offices of members of congress. Adderall, cocaine, Xanax, and a myriad of painkillers is the norm. Having to shake a colleague awake and pour coffee into him because he was so jazzed on adderall all of the previous day, that he had to drink himself into a drunken stupor just to fall asleep. Now it's 8am and he needed to be at a committee hearing in two hours. It's under reported and invisible. I think highly stressful jobs bring out a "solutions" mentality. Drugs help. With sleep, with productivity, with being on the ball....until they don't....
- obmelvin 9y ago
  Yes, I understand the anecdote here is a lawyer, but it certainly needs to be studied for all professions and modern lifestyle affects - lawyer, banker, programmer or blue collar or service jobs with infrequent customer interaction
neom 9y ago
The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. My career started in the film industry and the long days, emotional personalities and industry norm resulted in abusing blow, while I don't think it ever got totally out of control in my life, I did go through a year of using it every day, and some days all day. Of course, it's a cycle. You use it to live that life, you make money living that life, you spend money using things to live the life, you have to live that life harder. I switched back into tech in my mid 20s, and eventually ended up relatively senior in a quickly growing startup. After about a year I started to use adderall more and more and more to keep up and feel more focused and more like the engineering minded folks around me. I'm thankful that eventually my boss (our ceo) pulled me aside and told me he felt that I was using adderall and booze in an unhealthy way and he wanted me to stop. However, the next thing he said to me is actually what made me stop. He said we really love you the way you are without drugs, we really love John as he is. Whoah, that was like a slap in the face. I'm really grateful for that as I'm sure I could have ended up down some pretty crazy rabbit hole. I suspect more bosses could do with being like this.
- Havoc 9y ago
  >The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. Disagree on "pressure to maintain a lifestyle"...I'd make it more general and say just straight pressure. When people are under extreme pressure for long periods of time they look for an "out".
  - neom 9y ago
    Thanks for explaining my own feelings to me?
    - Havoc 9y ago
      I wasn't commenting on you or your feelings, the part I quoted was written by yourself and addressed to an unknown 2nd person: >The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. Since you're probably not addressing the dead lawyer or his wife or the new york times writer I took this to be a general comment open to the floor & voiced an opinion on it. Anyway...moving swiftly along.
Havoc 9y ago
When pushed into a corner and/or under huge pressure people make decisions that solve the short-term issue...but at a cost.
symlinkk 9y ago
I completely understand this guy's mindset. I am a 23 year old programmer who just graduated college. My goal is to work at a place that makes me happy. I think the first step is by working on personal projects to post on my Github and put on my resume. But when I get home after a depressing 8 hour day of staring at code that makes no sense and accomplishing nothing, I'm burnt out and tired and depressed and more coding is the last thing I want to do. So I'm trying to get a prescription for Adderall, because last time I took Adderall I was extremely focused and interested in programming, and I got tons of work done on personal projects that were a huge part of getting me the (albeit shitty) job I have now. I have only one friend, and he usually hangs out with his girlfriend, so I have basically no social life. When I want some down time, I instantly get depressed because I have nothing to do and no one to do anything with. So I smoke weed. I'm instantly happy, and video games and movies are instantly interesting and enjoyable again. I don't see how I can escape from these things. I truly feel like drugs are the only thing keeping me going right now.
- magic_beans 9y ago
  This breaks my heart to read, as you're so young, and so free, and this should be a happy time in your life. I hope you find your way. :)
- dirkdk 9y ago
  Don't do the drugs. Tech companies are marathons not sprints. It is not about one week, it is about years of innovation. You need to be healthy, creative and on top of your game. In our industry it is about being smart, not lots of hours of work. Being mentally healthy will pay off in the long run.
  - symlinkk 9y ago
    > You need to be healthy, creative and on top of your game If I don't take drugs I can't be on top of my game because I have no energy or focus or motivation to program without them. > In our industry it is about being smart, not lots of hours of work You don't get hired because someone thought you were "smart". You get hired because you're experienced in stack X or because you worked at prestigious company Y or graduated with a great GPA from prestigious university Z. X won't happen for me without drugs. I can't focus without them. Y won't happen without X. Z I can't afford and even if I could I would need drugs to get me through it. I feel like I have no choice.
ensiferum 9y ago
So this explains why it's called the bar exam ;-)
adam_seeliger 9y ago
Boo hoo.

89 points by hvo 9y ago

Of all the heartbreaking details of his story, the one that continues to haunt me is this: The history on his cellphone shows the last call he ever made was for work. Peter, vomiting, unable to sit up, slipping in and out of consciousness, had managed, somehow, to dial into a conference call.

mylons 9y ago
i just linked this quote to several people too. the next quote that really hit home was this one: "Over all, the results showed that about 21 percent of lawyers qualify as problem drinkers, while 28 percent struggle with mild or more serious depression and 19 percent struggle with anxiety." Because the percentages seem comparable in tech for engineers.
- bobowzki 9y ago
  I wonder how this compares to physicians?
- watwut 9y ago
  Do you have source for three tech claim? People around me don't seem to be that depressed nor alcoholic, but I don't work in SV.
  - Falling3 9y ago
    Depression is really not something you can necessarily glean from being around people, especially in an office environment. I imagine the same is largely true for alcoholism as well.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I am always surprised how we are managing to make the workplace less and less healthy to the point that of causing severe health issues. Most people know this but it seems to be impossible to stop this trend. Especially lawyers, doctors and lot of tech people make good money and could afford to work less but instead kill themselves.
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
Came here to post that same quote. It's amazing to me how much, in a world of plenty, we are still able to wrap ourselves, and our identities, so much in work that we completely lose sight of why we started working in the first place.
mysterypie 9y ago
> vomiting, unable to sit up, slipping in and out of consciousness, had managed, somehow, to dial into a conference call. How would the writer know anything about how Peter was feeling when he dialed into the conference call? Maybe Peter was perfectly fine and lucid at that moment. The events may be very sad, but that quote is made up, or call it "dramatic license" to be more generous.
- magic_beans 9y ago
  Medics probably got an accurate time of death, and one is able to extrapolate from that the time of his vomiting, which likely matched the time he made the call. Your comment is a little heartless.
  - mysterypie 9y ago
    Do you think the medics were able to extrapolate that he was "unable to sit up" at that moment? That he was "slipping in and out of consciousness" at that moment? If the writer (the ex-wife) had evidence she would have said so because it would have made the story more compelling. She could have said, for example, that the other callers on the conference call could hear him vomiting. But she didn't. I don't have a problem with dramatic license or artistic license; historical books and movies are full of scenes that no one witnessed. But when the grandparent of this thread said, "Of all the heartbreaking details of his story, the one that continues to haunt me", he seemed to believe that it happened just like that. I wanted to point out that the writer is inventing a scene -- it is not literally true.
    - simtel20 9y ago
      The junkies I've seen tend to have really poor sitting up skills while using. Extrapolating from that to a junkie who is overdosing seems straightforward and highly probable.

Steeeve 9y ago

Outside of the drug abuse, the lifestyle can be found in a good percentage of homes all over Palo Alto. Working 60+ hours/week for years on end(check), angry and threatening one minute, remorseful and generous the next (check), sustaining himself largely on fast food, snacks, coffee, ibuprofen and antacids (check), the last call he ever made was for work (likely), displayed no photos of his children or me in his office [because...] he didn’t want the partners to see him as “distracted by my family.” (yep). While this doesn't exist in every household it exists in a lot of them. Going for walks at dusk you can hear the household arguments spawned by this lifestyle. Not every house, every night. But they are common enough. Sometimes you just want to reach out and say "I understand" to the person in the house that's very obviously blowing up due to stress. What is less common is drug abuse. I don't know how people find the time for a drug addiction, alcohol addiction, or any other kind of addiction that isn't "overworking themselves" because that is very much a primary addiction. Silicon Valley is the 1950s Hollywood for techies. They come from all over the world to work with the best of the best, for a shot at something incredible. And much like Hollywood for actors, it ends up chewing up and eating more people than anybody outside the bubble realizes. There's a lot to be said for the area. All kinds of positives. But it's also a very destructive area at a very personal level. There is a lot of personal sacrifice happening at the altars of "educational opportunity", "changing the world", "better lifestyle for my family", and whatever other benefits people have talked themselves into believing that more money can provide for their families. My advice, and I should take it myself, is to recognize when you are breaking down and take a break. The world will get by for 2 more weeks without that one all-so-important feature that you're working on right now.

icantdrive55 9y ago
"Silicon Valley is the 1950s Hollywood for techies. They come from all over the world to work with the best of the best, for a shot at something incredible. And much like Hollywood for actors, it ends up chewing up and eating more people than anybody outside the bubble realizes." 1. Let's keep things in perspective. 2. Actors Hollywood are usually good looking. That complicates the equation. 3. They say Washington is Hollywood for ugly people. 4. My point is the Social Experiment glamorized the whole industry. 5. Silicon Valley is not like Hollywood in any era. Not that that's a bad thing, but let's keep it real. Yes--money will make a man attractive, but it only goes so far. I see rich tech guys who just don't quite get it. They are dating way out of their league, and just come up frustrated. 6. And yes--I will get hammered for this. I could care less. I knew the Social Experiment would twist techies perspectives. Yes--work on that self-esteem, but be realistic. Mark was smart enough to marry someone who liked him before the billions. He should be giving TED talks on that very decision. Maybe his best decision?

throwaway908345 9y ago

"Peter battled his own brand of melancholy...he wasn’t someone who ever really felt happy. He had moments of being “not unhappy,”" This hit a bit too close to home. not quite as severe for me yet, as right now in those moments i hide it behind a facade of dry humor and try to be an optimist. I'm 25 and work in tech out here in SV, and have no current impulse for illegal drug use and only a light drinker. But, I admit there is a non-zero chance I could one day become Peter. Fuck. Me. - i need to take better care of myself.

Theodores 9y ago

I recently had to cope with a colleague that has chosen this route, this level of addiction is traumatic to see. Things had gone a long way from recreational and I had to have words with the enemy - HR - as a thing I felt compelled to do. I have friends that take things recreationally for them to not go down the hell hole my former workmate chose, however, from reading the article I can see that they might be immune, they have shifted to sociable alcoholism and could shift over to the full on disease of addiction much like the subject of this article. Maybe mid life crisis could be the mechanism and not some childhood trauma thing. The opioid crisis has been an expensive mistake, there is too much blurring of prescription and street drugs in all these stories.

thinkcomp 9y ago

I have direct and very recent experience with the patent group at the firm mentioned in the article (WSGR) because my company is suing their client, but I think the following needs to be stated about all law firms. True, law is an incredibly stressful profession. True, it selects for competitive people. True, the hours can be crushing. But few other professions reward individuals for lying so much. Patent lawyers and most other lawyers lie day in, day out. Often their job cannot be done without lying. They lie to clients (overbilling), colleagues (opposing counsel), judges at every level, and as the article points out, their families. Often the lies are in print. It's essentially a prerequisite to rationalize these lies as "argumentation" or viewpoint, but often they're just lies. For most people who are not complete sociopaths, lying takes a toll. It's not at all surprising to see that it can add up in frightening ways.

drtillberg 9y ago
Lawyering done with a high degree of skill and latitude involves none of these things. I recognize the critique, at least from a distance, as a dysfunction caused by practicing in a high-stakes environment without the ability to persuade clients to take reasonable and just positions. Once upon a time bar association had fee schedules to ensure that one would not find any particular representation so lucrative as to apply pressure of this kind. I also will say that law schools do not necessarily encourage budding lawyers to cabin their argumentation, which unfortunately promotes a 'say anything' approach by younger lawyers like you describe. It's effective only in the short term.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

"One of the first things I learned is that there is little research on lawyers and drug abuse." Or really any other profession. I work in politics, in DC, and drug abuse is rampant. Absolutely horrible. I've found people snorting pills in the bathroom, steps away from the offices of members of congress. Adderall, cocaine, Xanax, and a myriad of painkillers is the norm. Having to shake a colleague awake and pour coffee into him because he was so jazzed on adderall all of the previous day, that he had to drink himself into a drunken stupor just to fall asleep. Now it's 8am and he needed to be at a committee hearing in two hours. It's under reported and invisible. I think highly stressful jobs bring out a "solutions" mentality. Drugs help. With sleep, with productivity, with being on the ball....until they don't....

obmelvin 9y ago
Yes, I understand the anecdote here is a lawyer, but it certainly needs to be studied for all professions and modern lifestyle affects - lawyer, banker, programmer or blue collar or service jobs with infrequent customer interaction

neom 9y ago

The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. My career started in the film industry and the long days, emotional personalities and industry norm resulted in abusing blow, while I don't think it ever got totally out of control in my life, I did go through a year of using it every day, and some days all day. Of course, it's a cycle. You use it to live that life, you make money living that life, you spend money using things to live the life, you have to live that life harder. I switched back into tech in my mid 20s, and eventually ended up relatively senior in a quickly growing startup. After about a year I started to use adderall more and more and more to keep up and feel more focused and more like the engineering minded folks around me. I'm thankful that eventually my boss (our ceo) pulled me aside and told me he felt that I was using adderall and booze in an unhealthy way and he wanted me to stop. However, the next thing he said to me is actually what made me stop. He said we really love you the way you are without drugs, we really love John as he is. Whoah, that was like a slap in the face. I'm really grateful for that as I'm sure I could have ended up down some pretty crazy rabbit hole. I suspect more bosses could do with being like this.

Havoc 9y ago
>The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. Disagree on "pressure to maintain a lifestyle"...I'd make it more general and say just straight pressure. When people are under extreme pressure for long periods of time they look for an "out".
- neom 9y ago
  Thanks for explaining my own feelings to me?
  - Havoc 9y ago
    I wasn't commenting on you or your feelings, the part I quoted was written by yourself and addressed to an unknown 2nd person: >The pressure to maintain a lifestyle that you perceive to make you whole is an interesting one. Since you're probably not addressing the dead lawyer or his wife or the new york times writer I took this to be a general comment open to the floor & voiced an opinion on it. Anyway...moving swiftly along.

Havoc 9y ago

When pushed into a corner and/or under huge pressure people make decisions that solve the short-term issue...but at a cost.

symlinkk 9y ago

I completely understand this guy's mindset. I am a 23 year old programmer who just graduated college. My goal is to work at a place that makes me happy. I think the first step is by working on personal projects to post on my Github and put on my resume. But when I get home after a depressing 8 hour day of staring at code that makes no sense and accomplishing nothing, I'm burnt out and tired and depressed and more coding is the last thing I want to do. So I'm trying to get a prescription for Adderall, because last time I took Adderall I was extremely focused and interested in programming, and I got tons of work done on personal projects that were a huge part of getting me the (albeit shitty) job I have now. I have only one friend, and he usually hangs out with his girlfriend, so I have basically no social life. When I want some down time, I instantly get depressed because I have nothing to do and no one to do anything with. So I smoke weed. I'm instantly happy, and video games and movies are instantly interesting and enjoyable again. I don't see how I can escape from these things. I truly feel like drugs are the only thing keeping me going right now.

magic_beans 9y ago
This breaks my heart to read, as you're so young, and so free, and this should be a happy time in your life. I hope you find your way. :)
dirkdk 9y ago
Don't do the drugs. Tech companies are marathons not sprints. It is not about one week, it is about years of innovation. You need to be healthy, creative and on top of your game. In our industry it is about being smart, not lots of hours of work. Being mentally healthy will pay off in the long run.
- symlinkk 9y ago
  > You need to be healthy, creative and on top of your game If I don't take drugs I can't be on top of my game because I have no energy or focus or motivation to program without them. > In our industry it is about being smart, not lots of hours of work You don't get hired because someone thought you were "smart". You get hired because you're experienced in stack X or because you worked at prestigious company Y or graduated with a great GPA from prestigious university Z. X won't happen for me without drugs. I can't focus without them. Y won't happen without X. Z I can't afford and even if I could I would need drugs to get me through it. I feel like I have no choice.

ensiferum 9y ago

So this explains why it's called the bar exam ;-)

adam_seeliger 9y ago

Boo hoo.