6 ms·

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companie

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

hunglee2 9y ago
The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it
- pmontra 9y ago
  What if Norway was another autocratic state? Economic punishment could have made them bent anyway. Maybe your point is that autocracies bend less than democracies and you could be right: dictators usually don't care about economic sanctions because what they care about is to stay in charge. A poor or wealthy country doesn't matter much. Actually sanctions help them to build a narrative of world against the country and strengthen their grip. I'm not aware of what happened in Norway after those Chinese sanctions. They could democratically decided that it was ethically worth losing those businesses. Any Norwegian people here?
  - comradeHulaHula 9y ago
    Norwegian here! I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.
    - lr4444lr 9y ago
      Do you and your countrymen ever doubt whether the potential political toxicity of the prize is worth it for Norway to maintain sole administration? Has there ever been talk of transferring it to something like a multi-country consortium under the U.N.?
      - epmaybe 9y ago
        I like this plan, but I'd imagine in Alfred Nobel's will there is something requiring that the peace prize be awarded only in Norway.
    - pmontra 9y ago
      I imagine what it should have been like. For once, I didn't even remember the issue. Sorry for that. I found this analysis comparing the sanctions to Norway and Mongolia and the final result. https://cpianalysis.org/2017/02/22/the-costs-of-normalisation-norway-and-mongolia-respond-to-chinese-sanctions/ https://cpianalysis.org/2017/02/22/the-costs-of-normalisatio...
- withholding 9y ago
  Democracies can choose not to trade with dictatorship.
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    True. However, the parties currently in government when that decision is made would prefer not to be voted out of power due to economic pressures.
- 19eightyfour 9y ago
  Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness. Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The people are effectively distracted and their frustrations channelled into the cathartic release of futile voting, while they are seduced by the delusion that they have actual power, when democracy is simply an effective means for social control to maintain a status quo. Democracies are not meant to take deterministic stances, to do so would upset the status quo and social control equilibrium that democratic theatre protects through its elaborate stage craft of "universal suffrage". A technocratic-governed advanced society like China, can afford to make long term bets and bold moves for the good of its people, and thus in my view better deserves the mantle of caring for its citizens wellbeing. Western states and their citizens sooth themselves with the fake payoff of pretending they are "morally superior" to countries like China by chanting denouncements of "human rights", which simply better distracts these Westerners from how their own governing system effectively short-changes them and swaps development growth and prosperity, for "harmony" -- but how harmonious is that currently? Probably the only reason people in Western "liberal democracies" don't revolt is because they are given the effective catharsis of "self determination" by voting every couple of years: a way to run around in the park, let off steam, cool off their hot heads. Democratic theatre is meant to enchant, distract and beguile the audience, so people obsess over basically meaningless differences, exaggerated only for dramatic effect to keep the audience spellbound. An exercise in collective suspension of belief. While society and economies stagnate. China can better care for its citizens because it can relentlessly pursue long term benefits and greater goods over short term gains, status quo and special interests. 5 year plans by the ruling elites have yielded seventy years of incredible economic growth. Westerns will at this point console themselves at their lackluster performance in comparison by pretending that "China is bad" because of the blood that was shed to bring the current peace and stability. Has it ever occurred to you that as much as China maybe feigns affront at your human rights criticisms, perhaps it also conceals a chuckle and is glad you distract yourselves thus with such concerns, while their economic grows and yours stagnates, while your politicians bicker and theirs act? Westerners will at this point console themselves that "China is bad" by making comments about the blood that was shed by Mao, and so on... A very effective defensive strategy at learning from the competition and insulation from introspection is to cocoon yourselves inside a shell of pretend "moral superiority" and pretending those that exceed you are actually less than you...don't any of you begin to feel that the brainwashing and propaganda to sustain such a state of non-introspection is very skillful? China skilfully deploys propaganda and mass deception as well, but to what end? To the end of the benefit of the people, economic growth, and civil harmony. What better way to deliver on their responsibility to their people than take care of them? Are your governments delivering on their responsibilities to you? Liu Xiaobo was a moron, elevated beyond his merit by a bitter and myopic award committee, bent on rewarding anything that would perpetuate a fading dream of Western supremacy -- cue the award to an internal critic of China. He advocated the Westernization of China. China will do better to continue inventing its own system rather than mimicking a Western one. Of course ignorant Westerners support such a dissident wholesale, but they only have to look at the relative consequences of a Chinese model vs a Western model to see the results: growth and stability vs stagnation and division. He's not a patriot, he's someone who hates China and the qualities that made it great: its culture, its people, its single party rule. He has no love for China, only hate, despite what the lies in SCMP say. He's a political actor, and not soon enough gone, for the good of China.
escapetech 9y ago
> Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu As it should be. Speaking up would only draw more attention to Norway's unscrupulous actions in conflicted and autocratic regions, especially considering its public image of neutrality, diplomacy, non-interference, and promoting progressive values. Denmark and Sweden are also in this as well - they say they promote human rights while exporting billions of euros in military technology and services to regions with known human rights abuses.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  Sources?
  - epmaybe 9y ago
    I found this link: https://www.earthrights.org/campaigns/norway-complicit-human-rights-abuses-burma https://www.earthrights.org/campaigns/norway-complicit-human... but haven't read it fully.
    - paulddraper 9y ago
      Looks like $5b of their pension fund investments include multinational oil and gas companies in Burma. The article says Norway is complicit in these companies' actions which are complicit in "forced labor, killings, and land confiscation"
HowardMei 9y ago
Not weak, but fragile. In fact, the government structure designed by Lisi in Qin dynasty 2000 years ago, and still being used today, is a fragile structure in peaceful times. It's a structure designed for war and the law enforcement tends to vanish if no direct threats are present to ordinary people. The central government will lose authority if the officials cannot contain dissenters, especially those who may be backed up by the provincial government officials. Liu tried to restructure the aforementioned political structure through 08 Charter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_08 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_08 We still don't know the details about what he actually had done besides drafting the manifesto.If he tried to create a political group to materialize the 08 Charter, then it's definitely a substantial threat to the central government and even to most of the Chinese people, though it would be a trivial issue in any western countries. The Norwegian government officials apparently had no idea about the severity of backing a dissenter challenging the central government in China due to cultural gap. In fact, many NGOs failed the same way in China. Those few who helps the central government are successful though. Liu spotted many flaws in the current political structure that many Chinese people know for years. Even scholars in northern Song dynasty and late Ming dynasty also tried to fix the same drawbacks Liu mentioned, but they failed miserably and gave up the entire civilization to Mongolians and Manchurians. In my opinion, Liu's importance is exaggerated by western media. His solution to our centuries-old problem is completely non-realistic and very dangerous. Ordinary Chinese people will laugh at his naiveness instead of respecting his idealism. To do a successful political system reform to attain the same achievements that western civilization has obtained through hundreds of years of improvement, China needs to meet Chinese people's most urgent demands step by step and reason from First Principles instead of mimic any model countries. It's kind of similar to the way for a startup to succeed. Edit: Added the Norwegian government paragraph and fixed some grammar issues.
varjag 9y ago
China also quickly reestablished relations with Norway when it needed a foothold in Europe against incumbent Trump.

hunglee2 9y ago

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

pmontra 9y ago
What if Norway was another autocratic state? Economic punishment could have made them bent anyway. Maybe your point is that autocracies bend less than democracies and you could be right: dictators usually don't care about economic sanctions because what they care about is to stay in charge. A poor or wealthy country doesn't matter much. Actually sanctions help them to build a narrative of world against the country and strengthen their grip. I'm not aware of what happened in Norway after those Chinese sanctions. They could democratically decided that it was ethically worth losing those businesses. Any Norwegian people here?
- comradeHulaHula 9y ago
  Norwegian here! I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    Do you and your countrymen ever doubt whether the potential political toxicity of the prize is worth it for Norway to maintain sole administration? Has there ever been talk of transferring it to something like a multi-country consortium under the U.N.?
    - epmaybe 9y ago
      I like this plan, but I'd imagine in Alfred Nobel's will there is something requiring that the peace prize be awarded only in Norway.
  - pmontra 9y ago
    I imagine what it should have been like. For once, I didn't even remember the issue. Sorry for that. I found this analysis comparing the sanctions to Norway and Mongolia and the final result. https://cpianalysis.org/2017/02/22/the-costs-of-normalisation-norway-and-mongolia-respond-to-chinese-sanctions/ https://cpianalysis.org/2017/02/22/the-costs-of-normalisatio...
withholding 9y ago
Democracies can choose not to trade with dictatorship.
- sangnoir 9y ago
  True. However, the parties currently in government when that decision is made would prefer not to be voted out of power due to economic pressures.
19eightyfour 9y ago
Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness. Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The people are effectively distracted and their frustrations channelled into the cathartic release of futile voting, while they are seduced by the delusion that they have actual power, when democracy is simply an effective means for social control to maintain a status quo. Democracies are not meant to take deterministic stances, to do so would upset the status quo and social control equilibrium that democratic theatre protects through its elaborate stage craft of "universal suffrage". A technocratic-governed advanced society like China, can afford to make long term bets and bold moves for the good of its people, and thus in my view better deserves the mantle of caring for its citizens wellbeing. Western states and their citizens sooth themselves with the fake payoff of pretending they are "morally superior" to countries like China by chanting denouncements of "human rights", which simply better distracts these Westerners from how their own governing system effectively short-changes them and swaps development growth and prosperity, for "harmony" -- but how harmonious is that currently? Probably the only reason people in Western "liberal democracies" don't revolt is because they are given the effective catharsis of "self determination" by voting every couple of years: a way to run around in the park, let off steam, cool off their hot heads. Democratic theatre is meant to enchant, distract and beguile the audience, so people obsess over basically meaningless differences, exaggerated only for dramatic effect to keep the audience spellbound. An exercise in collective suspension of belief. While society and economies stagnate. China can better care for its citizens because it can relentlessly pursue long term benefits and greater goods over short term gains, status quo and special interests. 5 year plans by the ruling elites have yielded seventy years of incredible economic growth. Westerns will at this point console themselves at their lackluster performance in comparison by pretending that "China is bad" because of the blood that was shed to bring the current peace and stability. Has it ever occurred to you that as much as China maybe feigns affront at your human rights criticisms, perhaps it also conceals a chuckle and is glad you distract yourselves thus with such concerns, while their economic grows and yours stagnates, while your politicians bicker and theirs act? Westerners will at this point console themselves that "China is bad" by making comments about the blood that was shed by Mao, and so on... A very effective defensive strategy at learning from the competition and insulation from introspection is to cocoon yourselves inside a shell of pretend "moral superiority" and pretending those that exceed you are actually less than you...don't any of you begin to feel that the brainwashing and propaganda to sustain such a state of non-introspection is very skillful? China skilfully deploys propaganda and mass deception as well, but to what end? To the end of the benefit of the people, economic growth, and civil harmony. What better way to deliver on their responsibility to their people than take care of them? Are your governments delivering on their responsibilities to you? Liu Xiaobo was a moron, elevated beyond his merit by a bitter and myopic award committee, bent on rewarding anything that would perpetuate a fading dream of Western supremacy -- cue the award to an internal critic of China. He advocated the Westernization of China. China will do better to continue inventing its own system rather than mimicking a Western one. Of course ignorant Westerners support such a dissident wholesale, but they only have to look at the relative consequences of a Chinese model vs a Western model to see the results: growth and stability vs stagnation and division. He's not a patriot, he's someone who hates China and the qualities that made it great: its culture, its people, its single party rule. He has no love for China, only hate, despite what the lies in SCMP say. He's a political actor, and not soon enough gone, for the good of China.

escapetech 9y ago

> Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu As it should be. Speaking up would only draw more attention to Norway's unscrupulous actions in conflicted and autocratic regions, especially considering its public image of neutrality, diplomacy, non-interference, and promoting progressive values. Denmark and Sweden are also in this as well - they say they promote human rights while exporting billions of euros in military technology and services to regions with known human rights abuses.

paulddraper 9y ago
Sources?
- epmaybe 9y ago
  I found this link: https://www.earthrights.org/campaigns/norway-complicit-human-rights-abuses-burma https://www.earthrights.org/campaigns/norway-complicit-human... but haven't read it fully.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    Looks like $5b of their pension fund investments include multinational oil and gas companies in Burma. The article says Norway is complicit in these companies' actions which are complicit in "forced labor, killings, and land confiscation"

HowardMei 9y ago

Not weak, but fragile. In fact, the government structure designed by Lisi in Qin dynasty 2000 years ago, and still being used today, is a fragile structure in peaceful times. It's a structure designed for war and the law enforcement tends to vanish if no direct threats are present to ordinary people. The central government will lose authority if the officials cannot contain dissenters, especially those who may be backed up by the provincial government officials. Liu tried to restructure the aforementioned political structure through 08 Charter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_08 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_08 We still don't know the details about what he actually had done besides drafting the manifesto.If he tried to create a political group to materialize the 08 Charter, then it's definitely a substantial threat to the central government and even to most of the Chinese people, though it would be a trivial issue in any western countries. The Norwegian government officials apparently had no idea about the severity of backing a dissenter challenging the central government in China due to cultural gap. In fact, many NGOs failed the same way in China. Those few who helps the central government are successful though. Liu spotted many flaws in the current political structure that many Chinese people know for years. Even scholars in northern Song dynasty and late Ming dynasty also tried to fix the same drawbacks Liu mentioned, but they failed miserably and gave up the entire civilization to Mongolians and Manchurians. In my opinion, Liu's importance is exaggerated by western media. His solution to our centuries-old problem is completely non-realistic and very dangerous. Ordinary Chinese people will laugh at his naiveness instead of respecting his idealism. To do a successful political system reform to attain the same achievements that western civilization has obtained through hundreds of years of improvement, China needs to meet Chinese people's most urgent demands step by step and reason from First Principles instead of mimic any model countries. It's kind of similar to the way for a startup to succeed. Edit: Added the Norwegian government paragraph and fixed some grammar issues.

varjag 9y ago

China also quickly reestablished relations with Norway when it needed a foothold in Europe against incumbent Trump.