4 ms·

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody d

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. It's also a proof that capitalism doesn't need democracy or free-speech to function.

philippnagel 9y ago
Capitalism needs government guaranteed private property. Was there ever the need for anything else?
sametmax 9y ago
Exactly. Too many people in our countries are very pushy about their value system but see no problem communicating about it through orwelian services using hardawre built by children. I mean, I'm veggie but I wouldn't dare considering eat lovers bad persons given what else I consume. That doesn't mean we should feel guilty. It's a hard problem. But that's certainly means we should not feel entitled. And boy do we love to be.
peteretep 9y ago
Equation of work conditions in China with slavery is flatly idiotic.
- InclinedPlane 9y ago
  He's equating slave labor in China with slavery, which is ... not? idiotic, I imagine. At the outbreak of the US Civil War there were about 4 million slaves living in America. Today there are, according to international estimates, about 3.4 million slaves living and working in China[1]. To claim that it is a non-existent problem or that it isn't severe or that it doesn't merit outrage or to imagine that it is somehow on a different level to the chattel slavery of 19th century America is to turn a blind eye to the truth or to try to finely grade suffering in a way that is dehumanizing. [1] https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/china/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/china/
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    you do realize that your suggested site clearly states that the modern slavery situation in China is almost the same as Japan/Italy and better than South Korea? How about you go back to your suggest site and read it carefully? https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/# https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/#
    - remline 9y ago
      I've seen an excellent documentary on South Korea's rural slavery problem.. Can you point me to a Chinese one?
- pizza 9y ago
  People nowadays often don't know that the abolitionist movement in the states saw chattel slavery and wage slavery as not particularly different and wanted to abolish both.
js8 9y ago
I am not sure what your point is. Are you telling me, if I have no interest in Chinese industry, that empathizing (which I do, as a human being) with Liu Xiaobo is a hypocrisy? I think you're doing an aggregation error of sorts. The fact that different people in the West have different opinions about China (and some of them are perhaps even hypocritical) doesn't make every westerner's opinion a hypocritical one.
blazespin 9y ago
Capitalism is changing China and the world for the better. Wealth is leading to more educated Chinese people who through enlightenment will support better government. If Russia could create the same culture of wealth generation rather than relying on military and natural resources, they’d be improving as well. Is it the best system? Hardly, but I don’t think withdrawing from globalism is going to help matters. The more we find ways to work together the better.
factsaresacred 9y ago
> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and living in fear of being bludgeoned to death by a rival clan, we can exchange our labour for security, health and resources. It's not perfect but if Capitalism ain't pleasing you then ask the person working that outsourced job what their grandparents thought of Communism, an ideology that crushed the very soul of China and brought misery, mass death and madness. Or just ask them what work they'd be doing if Capitalism wasn't keeping them enslaved in jobs.
- sametmax 9y ago
  You don't have a generalized cancer, you just have a small tumor. All is good.
  - factsaresacred 9y ago
    You're very confused. Look at this chart: http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png Poverty is the cancer. Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure. Don't bemoan the treatment because it's not perfect.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      It's about slavery here, not capitalism. And since infinite growth cannot happen in a finite system, you need to learn some math anyway.
    - kartan 9y ago
      > Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure. The problem usually is what people mean by "capitalism". In the last decades, too much people equate neoliberalism to capitalism. They are completely different, as neoliberalism is closer to corporativism and fascism than actual capitalism (the state needs to spy you, wealth redistribution is bad, companies have the same rights as people, ...). Public health care, compulsory education, the rule of law are the source of wealth creation. For that you need people with the freedom to pursue their business and their careers, but also progressive taxes and wealth redistribution. Capitalism is a word charged with a too much political charge to get reasonable discussions.
barking 9y ago
Where was the device you wrote this polemic on, made?
dilemma 9y ago
>To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. The Iraq War, The American War on Vietnam, daily drone bombings in Afghanistan and Pakistan by a nobel peace prize winner would be more like it.

philippnagel 9y ago

Capitalism needs government guaranteed private property. Was there ever the need for anything else?

sametmax 9y ago

Exactly. Too many people in our countries are very pushy about their value system but see no problem communicating about it through orwelian services using hardawre built by children. I mean, I'm veggie but I wouldn't dare considering eat lovers bad persons given what else I consume. That doesn't mean we should feel guilty. It's a hard problem. But that's certainly means we should not feel entitled. And boy do we love to be.

peteretep 9y ago

Equation of work conditions in China with slavery is flatly idiotic.

InclinedPlane 9y ago
He's equating slave labor in China with slavery, which is ... not? idiotic, I imagine. At the outbreak of the US Civil War there were about 4 million slaves living in America. Today there are, according to international estimates, about 3.4 million slaves living and working in China[1]. To claim that it is a non-existent problem or that it isn't severe or that it doesn't merit outrage or to imagine that it is somehow on a different level to the chattel slavery of 19th century America is to turn a blind eye to the truth or to try to finely grade suffering in a way that is dehumanizing. [1] https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/china/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/country/china/
- dis-sys 9y ago
  you do realize that your suggested site clearly states that the modern slavery situation in China is almost the same as Japan/Italy and better than South Korea? How about you go back to your suggest site and read it carefully? https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/# https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/#
  - remline 9y ago
    I've seen an excellent documentary on South Korea's rural slavery problem.. Can you point me to a Chinese one?
pizza 9y ago
People nowadays often don't know that the abolitionist movement in the states saw chattel slavery and wage slavery as not particularly different and wanted to abolish both.

js8 9y ago

I am not sure what your point is. Are you telling me, if I have no interest in Chinese industry, that empathizing (which I do, as a human being) with Liu Xiaobo is a hypocrisy? I think you're doing an aggregation error of sorts. The fact that different people in the West have different opinions about China (and some of them are perhaps even hypocritical) doesn't make every westerner's opinion a hypocritical one.

blazespin 9y ago

Capitalism is changing China and the world for the better. Wealth is leading to more educated Chinese people who through enlightenment will support better government. If Russia could create the same culture of wealth generation rather than relying on military and natural resources, they’d be improving as well. Is it the best system? Hardly, but I don’t think withdrawing from globalism is going to help matters. The more we find ways to work together the better.

factsaresacred 9y ago

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and living in fear of being bludgeoned to death by a rival clan, we can exchange our labour for security, health and resources. It's not perfect but if Capitalism ain't pleasing you then ask the person working that outsourced job what their grandparents thought of Communism, an ideology that crushed the very soul of China and brought misery, mass death and madness. Or just ask them what work they'd be doing if Capitalism wasn't keeping them enslaved in jobs.

sametmax 9y ago
You don't have a generalized cancer, you just have a small tumor. All is good.
- factsaresacred 9y ago
  You're very confused. Look at this chart: http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png http://images.rcp.realclearpolitics.com/379824_5_.png Poverty is the cancer. Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure. Don't bemoan the treatment because it's not perfect.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    It's about slavery here, not capitalism. And since infinite growth cannot happen in a finite system, you need to learn some math anyway.
  - kartan 9y ago
    > Capitalism (more specifically, wealth-creating economic growth) is the cure. The problem usually is what people mean by "capitalism". In the last decades, too much people equate neoliberalism to capitalism. They are completely different, as neoliberalism is closer to corporativism and fascism than actual capitalism (the state needs to spy you, wealth redistribution is bad, companies have the same rights as people, ...). Public health care, compulsory education, the rule of law are the source of wealth creation. For that you need people with the freedom to pursue their business and their careers, but also progressive taxes and wealth redistribution. Capitalism is a word charged with a too much political charge to get reasonable discussions.

barking 9y ago

Where was the device you wrote this polemic on, made?

dilemma 9y ago

>To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. The Iraq War, The American War on Vietnam, daily drone bombings in Afghanistan and Pakistan by a nobel peace prize winner would be more like it.