3 ms·

I love the idea of it but at the same time I feel like most items you require on a weekly basis should really be obtained in a more sustainable way. It's wonder

by jsz0 16y ago

I love the idea of it but at the same time I feel like most items you require on a weekly basis should really be obtained in a more sustainable way. It's wonderful we can (currently) afford this luxury of putting items on an airplane, flying them to a local hub, and driving them right to your house twice a week but there's more to consider than just the cost of the service itself.

qq66 16y ago
The sustainability of Amazon-style shipping is pretty complicated. If you buy items on Amazon, yes, they must be shipped, but you can bet that Amazon will find the cheapest (and likely relatively low-energy) way of shipping it to you. Meanwhile, you don't have to have as many physical retail stores, which consume tremendous amounts of electricity, and contribute to the suburban sprawl that causes "car culture."
- jsz0 16y ago
  It's definitely complicated. I was thinking of a few different scenarios and in some cases it's not clear that local distribution is always a better route. For example if your local store gets a shipment of 100 items and only sells 10 what happens to the other 90? Do they get shipped back? Thrown away? Who knows... If the UPS truck happens to be down the street and needs to go 1 mile out of its way to make a delivery to me that's better than my own 10 mile trip. Even with your example of less physical stores we'd have to consider that means less jobs, less revenue for the town in the form of property taxes when the business closes, less sales tax for the state -- apparently Amazon only charges sales tax in 5 states.
chaosmachine 16y ago
Alternatively, they just get delivered to your local store instead. And most people drive to the store.
- jsz0 16y ago
  Most cars get better gas milage than a UPS truck though. I know there's a ton of factors to consider here (what if the UPS truck is already making a delivery to my neighbor?) but it just seems really wasteful and indulgent to me. It's one of those things where I know if I signed up for it I would use it for the most frivolous and lazy purposes because it's just too easy and the consequences are completely hidden from me unless I make a real effort to think about it.
  - erikpukinskis 16y ago
    It doesn't seem that complicated. A UPS truck drives less than 100 miles per day[1], and gets 9 miles to the gallon[2]. At most, that's 11 gallons of gas to deliver packages to 150 people[3]. If those 150 people were to drive to the store instead, they'd get an average of 23 miles to the gallon[4]. The average round trip to the grocery store is 5.5 miles[5]. That's 35 gallons of gas for all of those people to go to the store. By that calculation, driving to the store uses more than three times as much gas as centralized delivery. [1] http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2009/04/30/fedex-aims-30-percent-biofuels-2030 http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2009/04/30/fedex-aims-30-percen... [2] http://www.hybridcars.com/news/fedex-and-ups-add-electric-drive-vehicles-27727.html http://www.hybridcars.com/news/fedex-and-ups-add-electric-dr... [3] http://gas2.org/2008/12/11/ups-drivers-using-bikes-to-deliver-packages-this-christmas-i-seen-it-wit-me-own-two-eyes/#comment-41106 http://gas2.org/2008/12/11/ups-drivers-using-bikes-to-delive... [4] http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat... [5] http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/foodnutritionassistance/funding/RIDGEprojectSummary.asp?Summary_ID=151 http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/foodnutritionassistance/fun...
    - bkrausz 16y ago
      That is the best research-to-length-of-post density I've seen on HN to date. Kudos sir.
jeza 16y ago
It often ceases to amaze me that here in Australia I can often buy books at 33-50% of the price that I can buy them retail locally. That's with international air freight and all. I guess it's less sustainable than if books were otherwise printed locally. Though a lot of stuff is here is printed in Asia anyway and tech books are printed in the USA. If books are sent by air freight to local distributers I guess it's the same. That said, I'm also finding bookdepository.co.uk cheaper and despite the greater distance shipping is much quicker from Europe than the US. (Many of the books I've ordered through them have been printed in Europe as well).
- whatusername 16y ago
  Borders are now claiming to price beat amazon (http://www.borders.com.au/borders-price-guarantee http://www.borders.com.au/borders-price-guarantee).. Not that they do - but I guess that menas if you're willing to go through some hassle - you can get books even cheaper. Someone on /r/australia recommended http://www.booko.com.au http://www.booko.com.au as a book search comparison tool as well.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
Why is it more sustainable to drive yourself to the store and back in a mostly empty car than it is to have the same goods delivered to you on a truck that also delivers to dozens or hundreds of others? The total per-item miles are probably less for the delivery scenario. Think of it as car-pooling, but for stuff instead of people.
- smhinsey 16y ago
  It's sort of like UPS truck pooling in my case. I live in a high rise that gets daily deliveries regardless of what I order, which is why I don't feel too bad about my incessant stream of Amazon orders.

by jsz0 16y ago

qq66 16y ago

The sustainability of Amazon-style shipping is pretty complicated. If you buy items on Amazon, yes, they must be shipped, but you can bet that Amazon will find the cheapest (and likely relatively low-energy) way of shipping it to you. Meanwhile, you don't have to have as many physical retail stores, which consume tremendous amounts of electricity, and contribute to the suburban sprawl that causes "car culture."

jsz0 16y ago
It's definitely complicated. I was thinking of a few different scenarios and in some cases it's not clear that local distribution is always a better route. For example if your local store gets a shipment of 100 items and only sells 10 what happens to the other 90? Do they get shipped back? Thrown away? Who knows... If the UPS truck happens to be down the street and needs to go 1 mile out of its way to make a delivery to me that's better than my own 10 mile trip. Even with your example of less physical stores we'd have to consider that means less jobs, less revenue for the town in the form of property taxes when the business closes, less sales tax for the state -- apparently Amazon only charges sales tax in 5 states.

chaosmachine 16y ago

Alternatively, they just get delivered to your local store instead. And most people drive to the store.

jsz0 16y ago
Most cars get better gas milage than a UPS truck though. I know there's a ton of factors to consider here (what if the UPS truck is already making a delivery to my neighbor?) but it just seems really wasteful and indulgent to me. It's one of those things where I know if I signed up for it I would use it for the most frivolous and lazy purposes because it's just too easy and the consequences are completely hidden from me unless I make a real effort to think about it.
- erikpukinskis 16y ago
  It doesn't seem that complicated. A UPS truck drives less than 100 miles per day[1], and gets 9 miles to the gallon[2]. At most, that's 11 gallons of gas to deliver packages to 150 people[3]. If those 150 people were to drive to the store instead, they'd get an average of 23 miles to the gallon[4]. The average round trip to the grocery store is 5.5 miles[5]. That's 35 gallons of gas for all of those people to go to the store. By that calculation, driving to the store uses more than three times as much gas as centralized delivery. [1] http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2009/04/30/fedex-aims-30-percent-biofuels-2030 http://www.greenbiz.com/news/2009/04/30/fedex-aims-30-percen... [2] http://www.hybridcars.com/news/fedex-and-ups-add-electric-drive-vehicles-27727.html http://www.hybridcars.com/news/fedex-and-ups-add-electric-dr... [3] http://gas2.org/2008/12/11/ups-drivers-using-bikes-to-deliver-packages-this-christmas-i-seen-it-wit-me-own-two-eyes/#comment-41106 http://gas2.org/2008/12/11/ups-drivers-using-bikes-to-delive... [4] http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_04_23.html http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat... [5] http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/foodnutritionassistance/funding/RIDGEprojectSummary.asp?Summary_ID=151 http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/foodnutritionassistance/fun...
  - bkrausz 16y ago
    That is the best research-to-length-of-post density I've seen on HN to date. Kudos sir.

jeza 16y ago

It often ceases to amaze me that here in Australia I can often buy books at 33-50% of the price that I can buy them retail locally. That's with international air freight and all. I guess it's less sustainable than if books were otherwise printed locally. Though a lot of stuff is here is printed in Asia anyway and tech books are printed in the USA. If books are sent by air freight to local distributers I guess it's the same. That said, I'm also finding bookdepository.co.uk cheaper and despite the greater distance shipping is much quicker from Europe than the US. (Many of the books I've ordered through them have been printed in Europe as well).

whatusername 16y ago
Borders are now claiming to price beat amazon (http://www.borders.com.au/borders-price-guarantee http://www.borders.com.au/borders-price-guarantee).. Not that they do - but I guess that menas if you're willing to go through some hassle - you can get books even cheaper. Someone on /r/australia recommended http://www.booko.com.au http://www.booko.com.au as a book search comparison tool as well.

InclinedPlane 16y ago

Why is it more sustainable to drive yourself to the store and back in a mostly empty car than it is to have the same goods delivered to you on a truck that also delivers to dozens or hundreds of others? The total per-item miles are probably less for the delivery scenario. Think of it as car-pooling, but for stuff instead of people.

smhinsey 16y ago
It's sort of like UPS truck pooling in my case. I live in a high rise that gets daily deliveries regardless of what I order, which is why I don't feel too bad about my incessant stream of Amazon orders.