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Bar passage rates are falling because law schools have become increasingly theoretical. Many law professors have never had actual clients who pay them for legal

Bar passage rates are falling because law schools have become increasingly theoretical. Many law professors have never had actual clients who pay them for legal work, or have worked as lawyers in the real world for less than five years. These profs are producing interesting academic scholarship but they are increasingly isolated from the legal profession. Law school classes, perhaps as result, tend not to teach what bar exams test: the elements of crimes and torts, how many witnesses are required for a will to be valid, the elements of a valid contact, and so on. These are exactly the things that Californians need their lawyers to know. If too many people are failing the bar exam, the problem isn't the exam, but the prep.

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ryandrake 9y ago
I wonder how many Computer Science professors out there used to be real "in-the-weeds" practicing software engineers.
- larrik 9y ago
  Computer Science isn't Software Engineering...
  - ende 9y ago
    Not sure why you're getting down-voted, you're absoluteley right.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Probably because it's pedantic. At most schools, if you want to major in computer stuff, you major in some sort of computer science major. In some universities, it's in the engineering school. In others, it's associated with other science programs, math in particular. There are various historic reasons for this. People who then go to build software systems are at least hopefully applying at least some engineering principles. Software arguably often doesn't follow as well-established engineering principles as some other types of engineering. But arguing there's some great separation between computer science and engineering really is pedantic.
      - larrik 9y ago
        Is it pedantic? I think Computer Science should be taught by Computer Scientists, which is a different set of people than Software Engineers. I say this AS a Software Engineer.
        ghaff 9y ago
        Every branch of engineering and science has more theoretical and more practical aspects. Look at physics. The people who do the theory and those who design the detectors have pretty different jobs. And universities, at least the more elite ones, always tend toward the theoretical side in all fields. Which is mostly a good thing so long as it doesn't over-rotate. Whatever language you learn is probably going to be yesterday's news in 10 years. (Unless it's COBOL :-)) [And I say this as an engineer with degrees in non-SW fields.]
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        It is pedantic because at some schools the degree program for people whose intention is to write software in exchange for money is "computer science" while at other schools it's "software engineering" and at yet other schools it's almost certain to be something else. Which means that arguing about which is the theoretically "correct" term has no relevance, since the names are used so interchangeably by the schools themselves.
      - Merad 9y ago
        > At most schools, if you want to major in computer stuff, you major in some sort of computer science major. That was definitely true in the 90s, but I don't think it's been the case for years now. Most schools have degrees like Information Systems where most of the people end up who are just generally interested in computers and/or find CS too difficult. Hell I work with a guy right now whose degree (from a state university) is in "computing" whatever that means.
    - praneshp 9y ago
      In my opinion, it's just a low hanging fruit some people like to hit. It's pretty clear what the GP comment meant. Comments like that make HN worse (IMO) than the pun threads on the Juicero article earlier today (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14771084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14771084).
  - CobrastanJorji 9y ago
    No, but a surprising number of Computer Science degrees are mislabeled. Plenty of CS programs don't even require that their students take even a single class on computer science.
- gaius 9y ago
  Or English professors are successful novelists or journalists...
matt4077 9y ago
As noted in the article, the exams are largely identical–only the required score is different. Having once attended a beautiful law lecture on the similarities of American Indian law and the law of high seas, I can state with some certainty that the Ivy league law schools aren't really a hotbed of teaching the daily grind of local court.
gamblor956 9y ago
That doesn't describe law school at all. In fact, what you claim would violate ABA curriculum requirements. The bar exam tests what you learn in law school. However, that is only the bare minimum for what you actually need to know to practice law.
- stmaarten 9y ago
  No, that's not right. The bar exam tests what you learned during BARBRI. Law school is for learning how to do good legal research, analysis, and writing, with some exposure to a selection of substantive areas of law thrown in for good measure. At the top schools, there's also a strong focus on understanding the law through historical, philosophical, and policy-oriented contexts. Memorizing "black letter law" is not an objective. In fact, at most final exams, you can bring in a stack of study guides and reference books to look up what you don't know.
ZanyProgrammer 9y ago
No,law schools have massively expanded and lowered standards in order to keep up enrollment. As a consequence fewer students pass the bar.
cylinder 9y ago
Lol, no, the bar exam is theory too. Average LSAT scores for applicants have dropped because smarter people caught on and realized law school is one of the biggest scams out there today.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ryandrake 9y ago

I wonder how many Computer Science professors out there used to be real "in-the-weeds" practicing software engineers.

larrik 9y ago
Computer Science isn't Software Engineering...
- ende 9y ago
  Not sure why you're getting down-voted, you're absoluteley right.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Probably because it's pedantic. At most schools, if you want to major in computer stuff, you major in some sort of computer science major. In some universities, it's in the engineering school. In others, it's associated with other science programs, math in particular. There are various historic reasons for this. People who then go to build software systems are at least hopefully applying at least some engineering principles. Software arguably often doesn't follow as well-established engineering principles as some other types of engineering. But arguing there's some great separation between computer science and engineering really is pedantic.
    - larrik 9y ago
      Is it pedantic? I think Computer Science should be taught by Computer Scientists, which is a different set of people than Software Engineers. I say this AS a Software Engineer.
      - ghaff 9y ago
        Every branch of engineering and science has more theoretical and more practical aspects. Look at physics. The people who do the theory and those who design the detectors have pretty different jobs. And universities, at least the more elite ones, always tend toward the theoretical side in all fields. Which is mostly a good thing so long as it doesn't over-rotate. Whatever language you learn is probably going to be yesterday's news in 10 years. (Unless it's COBOL :-)) [And I say this as an engineer with degrees in non-SW fields.]
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        It is pedantic because at some schools the degree program for people whose intention is to write software in exchange for money is "computer science" while at other schools it's "software engineering" and at yet other schools it's almost certain to be something else. Which means that arguing about which is the theoretically "correct" term has no relevance, since the names are used so interchangeably by the schools themselves.
    - Merad 9y ago
      > At most schools, if you want to major in computer stuff, you major in some sort of computer science major. That was definitely true in the 90s, but I don't think it's been the case for years now. Most schools have degrees like Information Systems where most of the people end up who are just generally interested in computers and/or find CS too difficult. Hell I work with a guy right now whose degree (from a state university) is in "computing" whatever that means.
  - praneshp 9y ago
    In my opinion, it's just a low hanging fruit some people like to hit. It's pretty clear what the GP comment meant. Comments like that make HN worse (IMO) than the pun threads on the Juicero article earlier today (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14771084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14771084).
- CobrastanJorji 9y ago
  No, but a surprising number of Computer Science degrees are mislabeled. Plenty of CS programs don't even require that their students take even a single class on computer science.
gaius 9y ago
Or English professors are successful novelists or journalists...

matt4077 9y ago

As noted in the article, the exams are largely identical–only the required score is different. Having once attended a beautiful law lecture on the similarities of American Indian law and the law of high seas, I can state with some certainty that the Ivy league law schools aren't really a hotbed of teaching the daily grind of local court.

gamblor956 9y ago

That doesn't describe law school at all. In fact, what you claim would violate ABA curriculum requirements. The bar exam tests what you learn in law school. However, that is only the bare minimum for what you actually need to know to practice law.

stmaarten 9y ago
No, that's not right. The bar exam tests what you learned during BARBRI. Law school is for learning how to do good legal research, analysis, and writing, with some exposure to a selection of substantive areas of law thrown in for good measure. At the top schools, there's also a strong focus on understanding the law through historical, philosophical, and policy-oriented contexts. Memorizing "black letter law" is not an objective. In fact, at most final exams, you can bring in a stack of study guides and reference books to look up what you don't know.

ZanyProgrammer 9y ago

No,law schools have massively expanded and lowered standards in order to keep up enrollment. As a consequence fewer students pass the bar.

cylinder 9y ago

Lol, no, the bar exam is theory too. Average LSAT scores for applicants have dropped because smarter people caught on and realized law school is one of the biggest scams out there today.