6 ms·

Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

73 points by urahara 9y ago

Aqueous 9y ago
This strikes me as a massive overgeneralization. States are just an organizational structure of institutions, tasked with operating a society. They are not intrinsically inclined towards building concentration camps any more than they are intrinsically inclined towards providing healthcare or delivering a basic income. States operating under an ideology of madness will operate as if mad. States operating under an ideology of reason will operate reasonably. And for me at least, the main take-away from the image of the concentration camp is clear: elections have consequences, so take your vote seriously. Form a functional coalition with others to elect the least terrible person you can. If you don't, you may end up handing the machinery of the state - capable of harm on a massive scale - over to the unsavory or the insane. That's the lesson of the concentration camps and the lesson of recent history. So I think the distinction between the nature of the state and the nature of its citizens is important for effective democratic participation. If you are so cynical that you think that 'concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state,' why would you participate in such a thing? If we are collectively down on the very concept of the state, there's no way to run a good one.
- mmustapic 9y ago
  States, or Nation States, are not just an organizational structure. They are THE organizational structure of the modern world. It is no coincidence that concentration camps are created by modern states and not for example tribes or criminals.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    It's not like the predecessors of the modern state were strangers to genocide and mass enslavement.
- honestoHeminway 9y ago
  The concentration camps showed humanitys tendency to shirk responsibilities towards processes. The same apparatus is at work today in states and companys. What can I do, im just a , i have to perform * or else i will loose my *. Thats where the evil is and was.
- jancsika 9y ago
  > And for me at least, the main take-away from the image of the concentration camp is clear: elections have consequences, so take your vote seriously. Form a functional coalition with others to elect the least terrible person you can. At least in the U.S. a potent mix of cynicism and tribalism with the two party system makes this extremely difficult. Lots of people take for granted that the system is broken. But when you actually begin to discuss policy they are likely to interpret criticism of their cynically chosen party's position as cynical politically motivated flak and defend accordingly. In that kind of environment "least terrible" doesn't seem to function anymore. I've wondered if one attack on this vicious cycle could be flippism. Exercising my right to vote for a randomly chosen candidate may be repulsive enough to most Americans that they may actually prefer to use their critical thinking skills to convince me not to do that. (I.e., I don't think most Americans are as cynical as they claim to be.)
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  This applies to any kind of large organization like states, military or corporations. Individuals don't really see anymore what the organization does but they just play their little role. In such a system it's easy for the organization to do evil while each individual just thinks they are doing their job without being responsible for the bigger picture. I think this will get worse because technology allows even tighter control of large organizations.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
roundupReady 9y ago
As much as I hate the UK, this isn't on-topic
beloch 9y ago
What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing. Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to the sword (or axe). Depopulating an entire city was a difficult task before carpet bombing became an option. Mongol soldiers were given quotas and expected to produce enough ears to show that they had met that quota. Punishments for not meeting that quota were harsh. Ears were put into sacks and carted off in wagons to be counted. Even dogs, cats and chickens were killed in some cases. There are recorded instances of Mongol armies leaving towns after doing this and then deliberately returning a week or two later, just to make sure they got anyone who had managed to hide in a basement or who was out of town when they were first there. Consider the Romans. After the third Punic war Carthage's population was sold into slavery en masse and the city burned for 17 days. The earth was salted. There was no fourth Punic war because there were no Carthaginians left alive and free. Let's not even talk about the Assyrians! Many states throughout history have committed genocide against enemies and many others have persecuted populations within their own borders. Concentration camps are only necessary now because most people won't stand for such atrocities, and states therefore feel compelled to carry them out in relative secrecy. Modern human society is gentler now than at any point in our past, although perhaps navel-gazing and self-accusatory articles like this are part of the reason why, no matter how uninformed they might be.
- geezer 9y ago
  People are and have never been squeamish about killing. They just don't like to witness gore in their own backyards while they are enjoying brunch with their families. Concentration camps eliminate the inconvenience of having your day ruined by unsightly executions by moving the fate of undesirables out of your sight. And regarding Mongols, most of what you learn from history is greatly exaggerated. Mongols fought to conquer and the cheapest way to conquer is to intimidate the enemy. It was in their interest to spread terror through stories of murder and brutality and it was in the interest of their victims to spread the same stories to elicit sympathy.
olivermarks 9y ago
tldr 20th century nation states are based on a world of fear and paranoia around mutually exclusive notions of ethnic and national homogeneity and territorial integrity. Incarceration techniques employed in concentration camps were borrowed in a transnational framework. They aided each state in isolating the unwanted (racial, religious, etc) and controlling the rest of the population through the implied threat of ending up in a camp for not conforming.
throwanem 9y ago
I approached this subject, most of a year ago, here in HN comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568718 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568718 I'm glad to have such a clear opportunity to see the vast difference in quality of results achieved by a professional historian on the one hand, and an armchair historiographer like me on the other. I'm looking forward to reading his book.
gumby 9y ago
Great little summary. It's a shame the author didn't get to / have space for the discussion of refugee camps, which are structurally little different from the german internal camps of the eRly 1930s or the DP camps at the end of WWII. The nature of the Nazi/Soviet/cpc/nk camps provides "air cover" for the widespread and more pervasive networks of camps still in use around the world.
frabbit 9y ago
Sounds interesting. By contrast Timothy Snyder in _Black_Earth_ argues that concentration camps were created as institutions that were deliberately outside of the state to facilitate slaughter: http://www.npr.org/2015/09/09/438943243/black-earth-explores-dangers-of-misunderstanding-the-holocaust http://www.npr.org/2015/09/09/438943243/black-earth-explores...
novia 9y ago
[...] a more analytically fruitful approach is to examine the impact of the First World War. Here, for the first time in modern Europe, we see [...] the willingness of the state to incarcerate huge numbers of civilians considered threatening. This statement was the one I found most intriguing in the entire article, but then the author did not expand on it. Maybe he does so in his book. It was strange to me to consider that this state of the world has not always been the norm. When I looked into it, I found conflicting sources of information. Anyone with knowledge on the subject feel like expanding on this?
mnm1 9y ago
We obviously haven't seen the last of them when the US has a network of prisons that holds almost 2.5 million people, many of them concentrated for rather obvious racial reasons. Just because they are built of brick and steel does not change their basic tenet. Nor does the use of prisons for such purposes or the fact that there are actual criminals in prisons in addition to the concentrated populations.
MichaelMoser123 9y ago
Stephan Zweig describes this new sense of nationalism as state policy after WWI in the 'World of Yesterday'; actually before the great world one could travel without passports or identification papers at all - that serves him as the detail that serves to explain the big thing. https://ia801609.us.archive.org/21/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.176552/2015.176552.The-World-Of-Yesterday_text.pdf https://ia801609.us.archive.org/21/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.1... "Nationalism emerged to agitate the world only after the war, and the first visible phenomenon which this intellectual epidemic of our century brought about was xenophobia : morbid dislike of the foreigner, or at least fear of the foreigner. The world was on the defensive against strangers, everywhere they got short shrift. The humiliations which once had been devised with criminals alone in mind now were imposed upon the traveller, before and during every journey. There had to be photographs from right and left, in profile and full face, one’s hair had to be cropped sufficiently to make the ears visible; fingerprints were taken, at first only the thumb but later all ten fingers ; furthermore, certificates of health, of vaccination, police certificates of good standing, had to be shown ; letters of recommendation were required, invitations to visit a country had to be procured ; they asked for the addresses of relatives, for moral and financial guarantees, questionnaires, and forms in triplicate and quadruplicate needed to be filled out, and if only one of this sheaf of papers was missing one was lost. Petty details, one thinks. And at the first glance it may seem petty in me even to mention them. But our generation has foolishly wasted irretrievable, valuable time on those senseless pettinesses. If I reckon up the many forms I have filled out during these years, declarations on every trip, tax declarations, foreign exchange certificates, border passes, entrance permits, departure permits, registrations on coming and on going ; the many hours I have spent in anterooms of consulates and officials, the many inspectors, friendly and unfriendly, bored and overworked, before whom I have sat, the many examinations and interrogations at frontiers I have been through, then I feel keenly how much human dignity has been lost in this century which, in our youth, we had credulously dreamed of as one of freedom, as of the federation of the world. The loss in creative work, in thought, as a result of those spirit-crushing procedures is incalculable. Have not many of us spent more time studying official rules and regulations than works of the intellect ! The first excursion in a foreign country was no longer to a museum or to a world-renowned view, but to a consulate, to a police office, to get a “permit" When those of us who had once conversed about Baudelaire’s poetry and spiritedly discussed intellectual problems met together, we would catch ourselves talking about affidavits and permits and whether one should apply for an immigration visa or a tourist visa ; acquaintance with a stenographer in a consulate who could cut down one’s waiting- time was more significant to one’s existence than friendship with a Toscanini or a Rolland. Human beings were made to feel that they were objects and not subjects, that nothing was their right but everything merely a favour by official grace. They were codified, registered, numbered, stamped and even today I, as a case-hardened creature of an age of freedom and a citizen of the world-republic of my dreams, count every impression of a rubber-stamp in my passport a stigma, every one of those hearings and searches a humiliation. They are petty trifles, always merely trifles, I am well aware, trifles in a day when human values sink more rapidly than those of currencies. But only if one notes such insignificant symptoms will a later age be able to make a proper clinical record of the mental state and mental disturbances with which our world was seized between the two World Wars.

73 points by urahara 9y ago

This strikes me as a massive overgeneralization. States are just an organizational structure of institutions, tasked with operating a society. They are not intrinsically inclined towards building concentration camps any more than they are intrinsically inclined towards providing healthcare or delivering a basic income. States operating under an ideology of madness will operate as if mad. States operating under an ideology of reason will operate reasonably. And for me at least, the main take-away from the image of the concentration camp is clear: elections have consequences, so take your vote seriously. Form a functional coalition with others to elect the least terrible person you can. If you don't, you may end up handing the machinery of the state - capable of harm on a massive scale - over to the unsavory or the insane. That's the lesson of the concentration camps and the lesson of recent history. So I think the distinction between the nature of the state and the nature of its citizens is important for effective democratic participation. If you are so cynical that you think that 'concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state,' why would you participate in such a thing? If we are collectively down on the very concept of the state, there's no way to run a good one.

mmustapic 9y ago
States, or Nation States, are not just an organizational structure. They are THE organizational structure of the modern world. It is no coincidence that concentration camps are created by modern states and not for example tribes or criminals.
- tptacek 9y ago
  It's not like the predecessors of the modern state were strangers to genocide and mass enslavement.
honestoHeminway 9y ago
The concentration camps showed humanitys tendency to shirk responsibilities towards processes. The same apparatus is at work today in states and companys. What can I do, im just a , i have to perform * or else i will loose my *. Thats where the evil is and was.
jancsika 9y ago
> And for me at least, the main take-away from the image of the concentration camp is clear: elections have consequences, so take your vote seriously. Form a functional coalition with others to elect the least terrible person you can. At least in the U.S. a potent mix of cynicism and tribalism with the two party system makes this extremely difficult. Lots of people take for granted that the system is broken. But when you actually begin to discuss policy they are likely to interpret criticism of their cynically chosen party's position as cynical politically motivated flak and defend accordingly. In that kind of environment "least terrible" doesn't seem to function anymore. I've wondered if one attack on this vicious cycle could be flippism. Exercising my right to vote for a randomly chosen candidate may be repulsive enough to most Americans that they may actually prefer to use their critical thinking skills to convince me not to do that. (I.e., I don't think most Americans are as cynical as they claim to be.)
maxxxxx 9y ago
This applies to any kind of large organization like states, military or corporations. Individuals don't really see anymore what the organization does but they just play their little role. In such a system it's easy for the organization to do evil while each individual just thinks they are doing their job without being responsible for the bigger picture. I think this will get worse because technology allows even tighter control of large organizations.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

roundupReady 9y ago

As much as I hate the UK, this isn't on-topic

beloch 9y ago

What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing. Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to the sword (or axe). Depopulating an entire city was a difficult task before carpet bombing became an option. Mongol soldiers were given quotas and expected to produce enough ears to show that they had met that quota. Punishments for not meeting that quota were harsh. Ears were put into sacks and carted off in wagons to be counted. Even dogs, cats and chickens were killed in some cases. There are recorded instances of Mongol armies leaving towns after doing this and then deliberately returning a week or two later, just to make sure they got anyone who had managed to hide in a basement or who was out of town when they were first there. Consider the Romans. After the third Punic war Carthage's population was sold into slavery en masse and the city burned for 17 days. The earth was salted. There was no fourth Punic war because there were no Carthaginians left alive and free. Let's not even talk about the Assyrians! Many states throughout history have committed genocide against enemies and many others have persecuted populations within their own borders. Concentration camps are only necessary now because most people won't stand for such atrocities, and states therefore feel compelled to carry them out in relative secrecy. Modern human society is gentler now than at any point in our past, although perhaps navel-gazing and self-accusatory articles like this are part of the reason why, no matter how uninformed they might be.

geezer 9y ago
People are and have never been squeamish about killing. They just don't like to witness gore in their own backyards while they are enjoying brunch with their families. Concentration camps eliminate the inconvenience of having your day ruined by unsightly executions by moving the fate of undesirables out of your sight. And regarding Mongols, most of what you learn from history is greatly exaggerated. Mongols fought to conquer and the cheapest way to conquer is to intimidate the enemy. It was in their interest to spread terror through stories of murder and brutality and it was in the interest of their victims to spread the same stories to elicit sympathy.

olivermarks 9y ago

tldr 20th century nation states are based on a world of fear and paranoia around mutually exclusive notions of ethnic and national homogeneity and territorial integrity. Incarceration techniques employed in concentration camps were borrowed in a transnational framework. They aided each state in isolating the unwanted (racial, religious, etc) and controlling the rest of the population through the implied threat of ending up in a camp for not conforming.

throwanem 9y ago

I approached this subject, most of a year ago, here in HN comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568718 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568718 I'm glad to have such a clear opportunity to see the vast difference in quality of results achieved by a professional historian on the one hand, and an armchair historiographer like me on the other. I'm looking forward to reading his book.

gumby 9y ago

Great little summary. It's a shame the author didn't get to / have space for the discussion of refugee camps, which are structurally little different from the german internal camps of the eRly 1930s or the DP camps at the end of WWII. The nature of the Nazi/Soviet/cpc/nk camps provides "air cover" for the widespread and more pervasive networks of camps still in use around the world.

frabbit 9y ago

Sounds interesting. By contrast Timothy Snyder in _Black_Earth_ argues that concentration camps were created as institutions that were deliberately outside of the state to facilitate slaughter: http://www.npr.org/2015/09/09/438943243/black-earth-explores-dangers-of-misunderstanding-the-holocaust http://www.npr.org/2015/09/09/438943243/black-earth-explores...

novia 9y ago

[...] a more analytically fruitful approach is to examine the impact of the First World War. Here, for the first time in modern Europe, we see [...] the willingness of the state to incarcerate huge numbers of civilians considered threatening. This statement was the one I found most intriguing in the entire article, but then the author did not expand on it. Maybe he does so in his book. It was strange to me to consider that this state of the world has not always been the norm. When I looked into it, I found conflicting sources of information. Anyone with knowledge on the subject feel like expanding on this?

mnm1 9y ago

We obviously haven't seen the last of them when the US has a network of prisons that holds almost 2.5 million people, many of them concentrated for rather obvious racial reasons. Just because they are built of brick and steel does not change their basic tenet. Nor does the use of prisons for such purposes or the fact that there are actual criminals in prisons in addition to the concentrated populations.

MichaelMoser123 9y ago

Stephan Zweig describes this new sense of nationalism as state policy after WWI in the 'World of Yesterday'; actually before the great world one could travel without passports or identification papers at all - that serves him as the detail that serves to explain the big thing. https://ia801609.us.archive.org/21/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.176552/2015.176552.The-World-Of-Yesterday_text.pdf https://ia801609.us.archive.org/21/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.1... "Nationalism emerged to agitate the world only after the war, and the first visible phenomenon which this intellectual epidemic of our century brought about was xenophobia : morbid dislike of the foreigner, or at least fear of the foreigner. The world was on the defensive against strangers, everywhere they got short shrift. The humiliations which once had been devised with criminals alone in mind now were imposed upon the traveller, before and during every journey. There had to be photographs from right and left, in profile and full face, one’s hair had to be cropped sufficiently to make the ears visible; fingerprints were taken, at first only the thumb but later all ten fingers ; furthermore, certificates of health, of vaccination, police certificates of good standing, had to be shown ; letters of recommendation were required, invitations to visit a country had to be procured ; they asked for the addresses of relatives, for moral and financial guarantees, questionnaires, and forms in triplicate and quadruplicate needed to be filled out, and if only one of this sheaf of papers was missing one was lost. Petty details, one thinks. And at the first glance it may seem petty in me even to mention them. But our generation has foolishly wasted irretrievable, valuable time on those senseless pettinesses. If I reckon up the many forms I have filled out during these years, declarations on every trip, tax declarations, foreign exchange certificates, border passes, entrance permits, departure permits, registrations on coming and on going ; the many hours I have spent in anterooms of consulates and officials, the many inspectors, friendly and unfriendly, bored and overworked, before whom I have sat, the many examinations and interrogations at frontiers I have been through, then I feel keenly how much human dignity has been lost in this century which, in our youth, we had credulously dreamed of as one of freedom, as of the federation of the world. The loss in creative work, in thought, as a result of those spirit-crushing procedures is incalculable. Have not many of us spent more time studying official rules and regulations than works of the intellect ! The first excursion in a foreign country was no longer to a museum or to a world-renowned view, but to a consulate, to a police office, to get a “permit" When those of us who had once conversed about Baudelaire’s poetry and spiritedly discussed intellectual problems met together, we would catch ourselves talking about affidavits and permits and whether one should apply for an immigration visa or a tourist visa ; acquaintance with a stenographer in a consulate who could cut down one’s waiting- time was more significant to one’s existence than friendship with a Toscanini or a Rolland. Human beings were made to feel that they were objects and not subjects, that nothing was their right but everything merely a favour by official grace. They were codified, registered, numbered, stamped and even today I, as a case-hardened creature of an age of freedom and a citizen of the world-republic of my dreams, count every impression of a rubber-stamp in my passport a stigma, every one of those hearings and searches a humiliation. They are petty trifles, always merely trifles, I am well aware, trifles in a day when human values sink more rapidly than those of currencies. But only if one notes such insignificant symptoms will a later age be able to make a proper clinical record of the mental state and mental disturbances with which our world was seized between the two World Wars.