5 ms·

Excuse my French, but bullshit. Consider Thailand and Malaysia, two neighbouring countries in SE Asia. In Thailand, they opened up markets to car manufacturer

Excuse my French, but bullshit. Consider Thailand and Malaysia, two neighbouring countries in SE Asia. In Thailand, they opened up markets to car manufacturers and suppliers, with the result that Thailand is now one of Asia's largest car manufacturing hubs. In Malaysia, they imposed protectionist barriers and tried to build their own cars. Ever heard of Proton or Perodua? No? There's a reason you haven't -- they're terrible.

ethbro 9y ago
Per Wikipedia [1] the successful Thai auto industry is a perfect example of using protective tarrifs to develop one's economy. They slapped huge tarrifs on imports, then shifted to taxing fully-assembled imports to grow their parts manufacturing, then gradually eased restrictions after they'd been able to develop a superior domestic parts manufacturing industry. Protective taxes. Domestic growth. Expertise. Drop taxes and start telling everyone else how great free trade is. It's a pretty winning playbook. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Thailand#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Thail...
- sooheon 9y ago
  This is exactly the playbook my country S. Korea used, enabling the "miracle on the Han". The "free trade" mantra is bullshit, it is literally kicking away the ladder that every developed nation climbed to get to the top.
  - joexner 9y ago
    figuratively
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Or "essentially".
    - sooheon 9y ago
      Thanks for the correction, I hate getting into a habit of misusing words!
    - shirian 9y ago
      As languages change over time, so has the meaning of "literally" to actually also mean "virtually"[0] [0]: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally
- eitally 9y ago
  This is what Brazil does and it is definitely not winning.
  - vslira 9y ago
    Exactly. When arguing something works you can't just ignore how often it doesn't. Development Economics is not so simple.
  - stelonix 9y ago
    It was definitely working for a good part of the time. Mismanagement in other areas does not imply the recession was caused by protectionism. Actually, there are several different reasons for the Brazilian recession, yet none of them has anything to do with a "closed" market.
ngsayjoe 9y ago
Malaysia is due to protectionism gone too far, rather than opening up gradually.
sooheon 9y ago
And I've never heard of any Thai auto manufacturers either. Yet S. Korea, another SE Asian country which went full on gov't interventionist/protectionist from the 60s through the 80s, is home to Samsung and Hyundai etc. These conglomerates would never have survived in direct competition, nascent industries require protectionism until they can compete. Completely "free trade" means each country focuses on industries where they have comparative advantage--S. Korea would still be weaving linen.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
  > . Yet S. Korea, another SE Asian country S. Korea is not a SE Asian country...
  - sooheon 9y ago
    Well it is in the South East of Asia. Nation groupings aren't exactly scientific taxonomies. A better comparison: S. Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, and Vietnam all started with sub $200 GDP/capita in 1960. As of last year, S. Korea's has exploded to ~27k, while Thailand and others are below $6k.
    - awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
      > Well it is in the South East of Asia. No. It is in the NORTHEAST of asia. "In common usage, the term Northeast Asia typically refers to a region including China.[2][3] In this sense, the core countries constituting Northeast Asia are China, Japan, North Korea, and South Korea." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Northeast_Asian_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Northeast_Asian_count... If you don't even know simple things like geography and locations of major nations, why are you even talking about economics? > Nation groupings aren't exactly scientific taxonomies. We aren't talking nation groupings. We are talking GEOGRAPHY. NORTH/SOUTH/EAST/WEST.
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> Excuse my French, but bullshit. It isn't bullshit. It is truth. > In Thailand, they opened up markets to car manufacturers and suppliers, with the result that Thailand is now one of Asia's largest car manufacturing hubs. But thai car companies aren't building the cars. They are just building cars for foreigners. > In Malaysia, they imposed protectionist barriers and tried to build their own cars. Ever heard of Proton or Perodua? No? There's a reason you haven't -- they're terrible. Can you name a thai car company? "According to Paul Bairoch, since the end of the 18th century, the United States has been "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism". In fact, the United States never adhered to free trade until 1945. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... The US was protectionist. Korea, Japan are protectionist. Russia is protectionist. And even much of europe is/was protectionist. You need protectionism to develop your own companies/industries. Otherwise, you become just a supplier for a company. The difference between thailand and malaysia is that malaysia want their own "Ford/Toyota/etc". Thailand just wants to be a low-end supplier on the bottom of the supply chain.

ethbro 9y ago

Per Wikipedia [1] the successful Thai auto industry is a perfect example of using protective tarrifs to develop one's economy. They slapped huge tarrifs on imports, then shifted to taxing fully-assembled imports to grow their parts manufacturing, then gradually eased restrictions after they'd been able to develop a superior domestic parts manufacturing industry. Protective taxes. Domestic growth. Expertise. Drop taxes and start telling everyone else how great free trade is. It's a pretty winning playbook. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Thailand#History https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Thail...

sooheon 9y ago
This is exactly the playbook my country S. Korea used, enabling the "miracle on the Han". The "free trade" mantra is bullshit, it is literally kicking away the ladder that every developed nation climbed to get to the top.
- joexner 9y ago
  figuratively
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Or "essentially".
  - sooheon 9y ago
    Thanks for the correction, I hate getting into a habit of misusing words!
  - shirian 9y ago
    As languages change over time, so has the meaning of "literally" to actually also mean "virtually"[0] [0]: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally
eitally 9y ago
This is what Brazil does and it is definitely not winning.
- vslira 9y ago
  Exactly. When arguing something works you can't just ignore how often it doesn't. Development Economics is not so simple.
- stelonix 9y ago
  It was definitely working for a good part of the time. Mismanagement in other areas does not imply the recession was caused by protectionism. Actually, there are several different reasons for the Brazilian recession, yet none of them has anything to do with a "closed" market.

ngsayjoe 9y ago

Malaysia is due to protectionism gone too far, rather than opening up gradually.

sooheon 9y ago

And I've never heard of any Thai auto manufacturers either. Yet S. Korea, another SE Asian country which went full on gov't interventionist/protectionist from the 60s through the 80s, is home to Samsung and Hyundai etc. These conglomerates would never have survived in direct competition, nascent industries require protectionism until they can compete. Completely "free trade" means each country focuses on industries where they have comparative advantage--S. Korea would still be weaving linen.

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> . Yet S. Korea, another SE Asian country S. Korea is not a SE Asian country...
- sooheon 9y ago
  Well it is in the South East of Asia. Nation groupings aren't exactly scientific taxonomies. A better comparison: S. Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, and Vietnam all started with sub $200 GDP/capita in 1960. As of last year, S. Korea's has exploded to ~27k, while Thailand and others are below $6k.
  - awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
    > Well it is in the South East of Asia. No. It is in the NORTHEAST of asia. "In common usage, the term Northeast Asia typically refers to a region including China.[2][3] In this sense, the core countries constituting Northeast Asia are China, Japan, North Korea, and South Korea." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Northeast_Asian_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Northeast_Asian_count... If you don't even know simple things like geography and locations of major nations, why are you even talking about economics? > Nation groupings aren't exactly scientific taxonomies. We aren't talking nation groupings. We are talking GEOGRAPHY. NORTH/SOUTH/EAST/WEST.
    - jsjohnst 9y ago

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> Excuse my French, but bullshit. It isn't bullshit. It is truth. > In Thailand, they opened up markets to car manufacturers and suppliers, with the result that Thailand is now one of Asia's largest car manufacturing hubs. But thai car companies aren't building the cars. They are just building cars for foreigners. > In Malaysia, they imposed protectionist barriers and tried to build their own cars. Ever heard of Proton or Perodua? No? There's a reason you haven't -- they're terrible. Can you name a thai car company? "According to Paul Bairoch, since the end of the 18th century, the United States has been "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism". In fact, the United States never adhered to free trade until 1945. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... The US was protectionist. Korea, Japan are protectionist. Russia is protectionist. And even much of europe is/was protectionist. You need protectionism to develop your own companies/industries. Otherwise, you become just a supplier for a company. The difference between thailand and malaysia is that malaysia want their own "Ford/Toyota/etc". Thailand just wants to be a low-end supplier on the bottom of the supply chain.