4 ms·

I'm in the same boat, but I know it's a problem. Yes, I get everything done I need to and then some. I'm up by 7 every day of the week, I work efficiently 50,

I'm in the same boat, but I know it's a problem. Yes, I get everything done I need to and then some. I'm up by 7 every day of the week, I work efficiently 50, sometimes 60+ hours a week. I'm with my family nights and weekends. I exercise, I play basketball, I play music. I'm 5 drinks in right now. I drink alone, every night after my wife and son are asleep. I'm usually working and drinking from 9 or 10 until 2 or 3 and then up a few hours later. I feel a little off for the first hour or so and then drink enough coffee to plow through the day. To be completely honest I think I've been drinking enough that getting a hangover would take a phenomenal amount of effort. I've acclimated to having booze every night. That's a problem. But it's not the big one. The big deal is: alcohol is unequivocally bad for you long-term. If it doesn't kill you directly through fatty liver/cirrhosis it'll contribute to an early death through many, many forms of cancer, heart disease, dementia, etc. You won't find many doctors who will say that drinking is not bad for you. My doctor was shocked even though I lied about how much I drink. I lowballed it and my doctor said "whoa, that's too much" It is a problem. A serious problem that is too often marginalized by alcohol's social role.

hug 9y ago
I don't know you and you don't know me, despite the fact that you say we're in the same boat, but it sounds to me like you're saying you really think it's time to start bailing. I hope by the same boat you just mean the same model, because if what you're saying is as true for me as it is for you, I'm going to sink, because honestly I don't feel like I'm gaining water. I feel like I might have stretched the analogy too far, but here's the thing: What's the first step, again? If you're happy, and if you honestly don't think you have a problem after some serious introspection, then you don't have a problem. You might have a diminished life span and you might have some health complications, but if the root cause of those things is you living your life the way you want to, maybe that's something you should have the choice to do.
- nkozyra 9y ago
  > If you're happy, and if you honestly don't think you have a problem after some serious introspection, then you don't have a problem. See here's where we disagree. Alcohol is extraordinarily addictive. I have begun to believe that I'm not living my life the "the way [I] want to," but am convinced through conditioning and social norms that this is the "good life" or whatever. Nobody is living a "good life" with 6+ drinks a night, particularly in the way I do. Alone, at a laptop, working until 3 a.m. There's a difference between a casual/social drinker and a habitual drinker. The latter will - via addiction - attempt to justify our drinking. And let me also say that you're right - we may be in the same boat but perhaps I'm at the bow and you're at the stern. For a long time I didn't even think about my drinking. I'd drink occasionally. Then semi-regularly. Then every day but I was 25 so who cares that's what we do. One day you wake up and you have a wife and family and you're still drinking like a college sophomore. Again, all of this would be fine if I were just a functional alcoholic and that were the end of the repercussions. But this is physically destructive behavior. It's the kind of thing you don't really consider until you start to get a bit older.
  - hug 9y ago
    I don't really want to offer unsolicited advice to a stranger on the Internet. That's not my place and it's not me. But it sounds like you're telling me that you're not okay with your drinking, and maybe you haven't been for a while. It sounds to me like you're an inch away from saying "I have a problem with alcohol". You should talk this over with someone close to you, whose advice you value.
    - nkozyra 9y ago
      My message is it's a very thin line. And one day you go from "this is fine" to "whoa, hold on." The longer you hang onto justifications for heavy drinking, the easier it is to cross that line. You can offer any advice you like, my issue is no longer recognition of the problem. I'm working hard at fixing this. My purpose in engaging is to let you know that often it's hard to recognize where you are on the spectrum. Your perfectly fine situation today may reveal itself to be less than ok in the near future. That's what happened with me. Edit: and as you described, I can still drink 6-8-10 drinks until the early morning and be perfectly fine the next day. The effects of drinking are cumulative and not always easy to see on a daily basis, particularly when you get to the point where there's little acute effect from a night of drinking. I don't really get hangovers anymore, so it's easy to say "hey, it's fine, my life is going as it should and I feel ok."
      - dmichulke 9y ago
        This is by far the most reasonable and calm discussion I read in a long time on HN, and it's being had - of all people - by two self-declared alcoholics about alcoholism. I wish you the best, you seem to be really cool people and I hope your life will be as good as you want it to be.
        hug 9y ago
        If you're ever in Melbourne, let me know. I'll buy you a beer, or your favourite non-alcoholic non-judgemental beverage of choice.
      - 9y ago
- soperj 9y ago
  I had 2 uncles that were high functioning alcoholics, that would do the same as you, but drink substantially more (1-2 bottles of rye a day). By the time they were in their early 60s, both of them (they were brothers) had to have their legs amputated because of circulation issues related to alcohol consumption. It can lead to more problems than you'd think. I guess my first thought when I see people like this, especially people who can clearly do their job quite well, is don't you wonder what you could accomplish when you're not drunk?
  - allenbrunson 9y ago
    > I guess my first thought when I see people like this, especially people who can clearly do their job quite well, is don't you wonder what you could accomplish when you're not drunk? ... and that says to me that you didn't absorb what those guys wrote. like, for example, this: > If only for the fact that I didn't so much enjoy being drunk, with the knots in my brain unwound, feeling like I'm finally able to relax my consciousness with a drink like I relax my body with a massage. therefore, the answer to "what you could accomplish when you're not drunk" might well be "a whole hell of a lot less than he's accomplishing right now."
    - barrkel 9y ago
      Actually, I suspect those knots are thwarted ambition or unaddressed life problems or something else that could be fixed that alcohol is just anesthesizing. It might still be rational. The costs of change on other people, like children, may make it not worthwhile, or the struggle to fulfill ambition might rationally be viewed as pointless. Just don't dismiss the knots as things that can only be treated with alcohol.
      - allenbrunson 9y ago
        i'd be willing to bet you have some problems in your life. if not, you'd be the first person in the world who doesn't. so what's stopping you from solving them, right now? perhaps you are too cowardly? see where this line of thought leads? i'd just as soon not go there.
avn2109 9y ago
Doctors know you're lowballing the estimates, and they apply a nonlinear corrective factor to whatever number you tell them. Not that this particularly changes anything, but they do know you're lying.
- mentalhealth 9y ago
  A favorite of mine from medical school... "two drinks a day!" Oh yeah? What do you usually drink? "A box of wine and a handle of whiskey."
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    Good post/username combination. :)
taneq 9y ago
> My doctor was shocked even though I lied about how much I drink. I lowballed it and my doctor said "whoa, that's too much" I believe they're obliged to react that way no matter what you say, as long as it's above their laughable "less than 4 standard drinks in a sitting" limit. Kind of the way a police officer will call you a dangerous lunatic for traveling 10km/h over the limit even on an empty road in perfect conditions where you could perfectly safely be traveling at double the speed.
Osiris30 9y ago
If you have not done so already, (and for many others commenting on this thread), in your situation you might get a lot out looking up "The Sinclair Method"; "Dr. David Sinclair" and "Pharmacological Extinction". Some useful links below. [1] http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19 http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=5... - About The Sinclair Method and How It Works [2] http://www.centersite.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=11132&cn=14 http://www.centersite.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=11132... [3] http://www.cthreefoundation.org/about-the-sinclair-method.html#.V2bcFJN97eQ http://www.cthreefoundation.org/about-the-sinclair-method.ht... [4] http://cthreeeurope.com/the-5-steps-to-curing-alcoholism-excerpts-from-the-book-the-cure-for-alcoholism-by-dr-roy-eskapa-ph-d/ http://cthreeeurope.com/the-5-steps-to-curing-alcoholism-exc... Why Isn’t The Sinclair Method Used More Often and why have so few doctors in the US/UK heard of it? [4] Best explanation: https://www.quora.com/Can-naltrexone-normalize-the-drinking-of-alcoholics-if-used-with-the-Sinclair-Method https://www.quora.com/Can-naltrexone-normalize-the-drinking-... [5] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-addiction/201307/drink-your-way-sober-naltrexone https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-addiction/20... [6] https://www.addiction.com/expert-blogs/why-isnt-the-sinclair-method-used-more-often/ https://www.addiction.com/expert-blogs/why-isnt-the-sinclair...
- lastofus 9y ago
  +1 for the Sinclair Method. After giving it a try 2 years ago, I went from a decade of 5-10 drinks a day down to 0, and have remained that there for the last year. Unlike when I tried abstaining before, there isn't a constant craving or feeling like I'm off or not right. With insurance, the pills cost me $5 for a month supply. I can't recommend this method enough.
mercer 9y ago
If you're in some way trying to deal with this problem (or open to trying yet again), I can highly recommend checking out the 'stopdrinking' subreddit. Or alternatively feel free to send me an email or something.

hug 9y ago

I don't know you and you don't know me, despite the fact that you say we're in the same boat, but it sounds to me like you're saying you really think it's time to start bailing. I hope by the same boat you just mean the same model, because if what you're saying is as true for me as it is for you, I'm going to sink, because honestly I don't feel like I'm gaining water. I feel like I might have stretched the analogy too far, but here's the thing: What's the first step, again? If you're happy, and if you honestly don't think you have a problem after some serious introspection, then you don't have a problem. You might have a diminished life span and you might have some health complications, but if the root cause of those things is you living your life the way you want to, maybe that's something you should have the choice to do.

nkozyra 9y ago
> If you're happy, and if you honestly don't think you have a problem after some serious introspection, then you don't have a problem. See here's where we disagree. Alcohol is extraordinarily addictive. I have begun to believe that I'm not living my life the "the way [I] want to," but am convinced through conditioning and social norms that this is the "good life" or whatever. Nobody is living a "good life" with 6+ drinks a night, particularly in the way I do. Alone, at a laptop, working until 3 a.m. There's a difference between a casual/social drinker and a habitual drinker. The latter will - via addiction - attempt to justify our drinking. And let me also say that you're right - we may be in the same boat but perhaps I'm at the bow and you're at the stern. For a long time I didn't even think about my drinking. I'd drink occasionally. Then semi-regularly. Then every day but I was 25 so who cares that's what we do. One day you wake up and you have a wife and family and you're still drinking like a college sophomore. Again, all of this would be fine if I were just a functional alcoholic and that were the end of the repercussions. But this is physically destructive behavior. It's the kind of thing you don't really consider until you start to get a bit older.
- hug 9y ago
  I don't really want to offer unsolicited advice to a stranger on the Internet. That's not my place and it's not me. But it sounds like you're telling me that you're not okay with your drinking, and maybe you haven't been for a while. It sounds to me like you're an inch away from saying "I have a problem with alcohol". You should talk this over with someone close to you, whose advice you value.
  - nkozyra 9y ago
    My message is it's a very thin line. And one day you go from "this is fine" to "whoa, hold on." The longer you hang onto justifications for heavy drinking, the easier it is to cross that line. You can offer any advice you like, my issue is no longer recognition of the problem. I'm working hard at fixing this. My purpose in engaging is to let you know that often it's hard to recognize where you are on the spectrum. Your perfectly fine situation today may reveal itself to be less than ok in the near future. That's what happened with me. Edit: and as you described, I can still drink 6-8-10 drinks until the early morning and be perfectly fine the next day. The effects of drinking are cumulative and not always easy to see on a daily basis, particularly when you get to the point where there's little acute effect from a night of drinking. I don't really get hangovers anymore, so it's easy to say "hey, it's fine, my life is going as it should and I feel ok."
    - dmichulke 9y ago
      This is by far the most reasonable and calm discussion I read in a long time on HN, and it's being had - of all people - by two self-declared alcoholics about alcoholism. I wish you the best, you seem to be really cool people and I hope your life will be as good as you want it to be.
      - hug 9y ago
        If you're ever in Melbourne, let me know. I'll buy you a beer, or your favourite non-alcoholic non-judgemental beverage of choice.
    - 9y ago
soperj 9y ago
I had 2 uncles that were high functioning alcoholics, that would do the same as you, but drink substantially more (1-2 bottles of rye a day). By the time they were in their early 60s, both of them (they were brothers) had to have their legs amputated because of circulation issues related to alcohol consumption. It can lead to more problems than you'd think. I guess my first thought when I see people like this, especially people who can clearly do their job quite well, is don't you wonder what you could accomplish when you're not drunk?
- allenbrunson 9y ago
  > I guess my first thought when I see people like this, especially people who can clearly do their job quite well, is don't you wonder what you could accomplish when you're not drunk? ... and that says to me that you didn't absorb what those guys wrote. like, for example, this: > If only for the fact that I didn't so much enjoy being drunk, with the knots in my brain unwound, feeling like I'm finally able to relax my consciousness with a drink like I relax my body with a massage. therefore, the answer to "what you could accomplish when you're not drunk" might well be "a whole hell of a lot less than he's accomplishing right now."
  - barrkel 9y ago
    Actually, I suspect those knots are thwarted ambition or unaddressed life problems or something else that could be fixed that alcohol is just anesthesizing. It might still be rational. The costs of change on other people, like children, may make it not worthwhile, or the struggle to fulfill ambition might rationally be viewed as pointless. Just don't dismiss the knots as things that can only be treated with alcohol.
    - allenbrunson 9y ago
      i'd be willing to bet you have some problems in your life. if not, you'd be the first person in the world who doesn't. so what's stopping you from solving them, right now? perhaps you are too cowardly? see where this line of thought leads? i'd just as soon not go there.

avn2109 9y ago

Doctors know you're lowballing the estimates, and they apply a nonlinear corrective factor to whatever number you tell them. Not that this particularly changes anything, but they do know you're lying.

mentalhealth 9y ago
A favorite of mine from medical school... "two drinks a day!" Oh yeah? What do you usually drink? "A box of wine and a handle of whiskey."
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  Good post/username combination. :)

taneq 9y ago

> My doctor was shocked even though I lied about how much I drink. I lowballed it and my doctor said "whoa, that's too much" I believe they're obliged to react that way no matter what you say, as long as it's above their laughable "less than 4 standard drinks in a sitting" limit. Kind of the way a police officer will call you a dangerous lunatic for traveling 10km/h over the limit even on an empty road in perfect conditions where you could perfectly safely be traveling at double the speed.

Osiris30 9y ago

If you have not done so already, (and for many others commenting on this thread), in your situation you might get a lot out looking up "The Sinclair Method"; "Dr. David Sinclair" and "Pharmacological Extinction". Some useful links below. [1] http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19 http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=5... - About The Sinclair Method and How It Works [2] http://www.centersite.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=11132&cn=14 http://www.centersite.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=11132... [3] http://www.cthreefoundation.org/about-the-sinclair-method.html#.V2bcFJN97eQ http://www.cthreefoundation.org/about-the-sinclair-method.ht... [4] http://cthreeeurope.com/the-5-steps-to-curing-alcoholism-excerpts-from-the-book-the-cure-for-alcoholism-by-dr-roy-eskapa-ph-d/ http://cthreeeurope.com/the-5-steps-to-curing-alcoholism-exc... Why Isn’t The Sinclair Method Used More Often and why have so few doctors in the US/UK heard of it? [4] Best explanation: https://www.quora.com/Can-naltrexone-normalize-the-drinking-of-alcoholics-if-used-with-the-Sinclair-Method https://www.quora.com/Can-naltrexone-normalize-the-drinking-... [5] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-addiction/201307/drink-your-way-sober-naltrexone https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-addiction/20... [6] https://www.addiction.com/expert-blogs/why-isnt-the-sinclair-method-used-more-often/ https://www.addiction.com/expert-blogs/why-isnt-the-sinclair...

lastofus 9y ago
+1 for the Sinclair Method. After giving it a try 2 years ago, I went from a decade of 5-10 drinks a day down to 0, and have remained that there for the last year. Unlike when I tried abstaining before, there isn't a constant craving or feeling like I'm off or not right. With insurance, the pills cost me $5 for a month supply. I can't recommend this method enough.

mercer 9y ago

If you're in some way trying to deal with this problem (or open to trying yet again), I can highly recommend checking out the 'stopdrinking' subreddit. Or alternatively feel free to send me an email or something.