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I think you and the GP are on the same page, just coming from different angles. You say we need to change communities; how do you do that without first changing

I think you and the GP are on the same page, just coming from different angles. You say we need to change communities; how do you do that without first changing the culture? Why do people want to live in suburbs? I don't know how to do it, but if there is enough demand for more efficient lifestyles I believe the market will meet it.

scottLobster 9y ago
Because most large cities (at least in America) are loud, cramped, polluted, with horrible traffic and hit-and-miss public transportation, the schools are usually worse, and if you want space for even minor luxuries like a small workshop for personal projects, home office, rec-room, or other standard features of a typical middle-class American house, you better be willing to pay through the nose for it. Paying through the nose goes for just about everything else in the city as well. Plus you won't get to use your personal property as an investment, because you likely won't have any living in a city. Add in a lot of NIMBY residents who don't want any new residents moving into their neighborhoods, good luck making the city appealing to anyone who doesn't REALLY want to live there, or else has some business opportunity that makes living in the city worth their while. Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient. Between electric cars, renewables and more efficient tech of all stripes coming around there's no reason we shouldn't be able to get suburban houses down to carbon-neutral. The amount of transformation major cities would have to undergo to appeal to suburban populations is just unrealistic by comparison.
- npsimons 9y ago
  > Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient. That makes me sad, because when I envision suburbia, it involves all the NIMBYism (especially in the form of HOAs) you mentioned above, combined with distances that make using a bicycle for transportation unrealistic. I actually enjoy riding my bicycle to and from work (and the grocery store). I would dread a commute in a vehicle of even 30 minutes.
  - scottLobster 9y ago
    Depends on the suburb. Some are indeed the HOA-from-hell fiefdoms that'll slap you with fines for your lawn being an inch above regulation, or boot/tow cars that park on the street without a pass. Those suck. And if you're not near a major population center you run the risk of there just being nothing to do/no real career prospects in town. But as someone who grew up in a suburb and has lived in several, in my experience people tend to keep to themselves so long as no one's being a bother. A bike to work isn't necessarily out of the question either if you live just outside a major city. Some areas have bike trails that can take you quite a distance. But yeah in most cases you'll need a car for virtually everything, that is a downside. My personal commute is only 10 minutes, but I know people who commute up to 1 hour if they work downtown (morning rushour is a bitch).
erikpukinskis 9y ago
Culture is everything that outlasts us: buildings, language, tools, social calendars, contracts, habits, etc. Changing the buildings is changing the culture. You identify a complete resource cycle, like a weekly grocery habit, and design a replacement. Drop it in, look for another one. Demand is a trailing indicator. Significant demand for integrated permaculture living won't happen until long after the concept is proven and started scaling.

scottLobster 9y ago

Because most large cities (at least in America) are loud, cramped, polluted, with horrible traffic and hit-and-miss public transportation, the schools are usually worse, and if you want space for even minor luxuries like a small workshop for personal projects, home office, rec-room, or other standard features of a typical middle-class American house, you better be willing to pay through the nose for it. Paying through the nose goes for just about everything else in the city as well. Plus you won't get to use your personal property as an investment, because you likely won't have any living in a city. Add in a lot of NIMBY residents who don't want any new residents moving into their neighborhoods, good luck making the city appealing to anyone who doesn't REALLY want to live there, or else has some business opportunity that makes living in the city worth their while. Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient. Between electric cars, renewables and more efficient tech of all stripes coming around there's no reason we shouldn't be able to get suburban houses down to carbon-neutral. The amount of transformation major cities would have to undergo to appeal to suburban populations is just unrealistic by comparison.

npsimons 9y ago
> Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient. That makes me sad, because when I envision suburbia, it involves all the NIMBYism (especially in the form of HOAs) you mentioned above, combined with distances that make using a bicycle for transportation unrealistic. I actually enjoy riding my bicycle to and from work (and the grocery store). I would dread a commute in a vehicle of even 30 minutes.
- scottLobster 9y ago
  Depends on the suburb. Some are indeed the HOA-from-hell fiefdoms that'll slap you with fines for your lawn being an inch above regulation, or boot/tow cars that park on the street without a pass. Those suck. And if you're not near a major population center you run the risk of there just being nothing to do/no real career prospects in town. But as someone who grew up in a suburb and has lived in several, in my experience people tend to keep to themselves so long as no one's being a bother. A bike to work isn't necessarily out of the question either if you live just outside a major city. Some areas have bike trails that can take you quite a distance. But yeah in most cases you'll need a car for virtually everything, that is a downside. My personal commute is only 10 minutes, but I know people who commute up to 1 hour if they work downtown (morning rushour is a bitch).

erikpukinskis 9y ago

Culture is everything that outlasts us: buildings, language, tools, social calendars, contracts, habits, etc. Changing the buildings is changing the culture. You identify a complete resource cycle, like a weekly grocery habit, and design a replacement. Drop it in, look for another one. Demand is a trailing indicator. Significant demand for integrated permaculture living won't happen until long after the concept is proven and started scaling.