6 ms·

Do you think you'd have more of what you want if bargaining with your employer as an individual?

by xapata 9y ago

nawitus 9y ago
Yes. There is of course still a negotiation of benefits on top of the standard contract, I'm not paid minimum wage. If I could remove some benefits I don't need from my own, personal contract this would give me leverage to get something else in return. A slightly higher wage if nothing else.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Possibly although in my experience in the US the flexibility to change benefits is limited. I have choice in things like health plans but that's mostly about how much I want to pay on top of an employer contribution. Most of the disability, life insurance, etc. benefits aren't negotiable afaik (and are probably much better deals from the company anyway).
  - gricardo99 9y ago
    It depends on the employer. If you're under 35, and in decent health, you're likely better off getting disability and life insurance on your own. Your premiums will be lower than from a group plan, which usually takes some average demographics to determine the group premiums. If your employer is paying the premiums, you're better off if you can decline the benefit, get yourself a lower premium plan, and pocket the difference. Conversely, if you're older, or have health issues, those group plans can be a steal of a deal.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      That may be true although, to the broader point, I've never seen those sorts of benefits be optional (albeit across a fairly small sample size). Employers get a good deal precisely because there's going to be a lot of adverse selection with these sorts of things. Healthy single 20-somethings get a pretty good deal on their own but most of them won't even bother.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    That's because of federal tax laws regarding benefits, sadly.
Klockan 9y ago
Yes, unions works kinda like price fixing but across the entire country. The thing is that the union tells everyone what your expected salary is given certain experience, so this salary will always be the starting point in any negotiation. If you are a strong candidate you might get a few percent more and vice versa for weak candidates. This is how it worked where I came from at least.
kobeya 9y ago
Yes. Unions protect workers in commodity markets. Software development is _not_ a commodity. Anyone with valuable skills should be able to negotiate a better deal with potential employers than the industry average that the union represents.
- xapata 9y ago
  Then why can't you negotiate a better deal separately from the union? If it's truly not a commodity market, then a firm could gain a competitive advantage by refusing to negotiate with the union and hiring non-union employees.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    You must not be familiar with how unions work, which is understandable. A union employer can ONLY hire union employees to do the class of job the union provides. The employer does not have the option to hire non-union workers for those roles as long as the union contract is in effect. This enforced depending on the jurisdiction either in contracts or by government regulations.
    - Animats 9y ago
      No, that's a closed shop, which has been illegal in the US since 1947. The usual arrangement in the US is a "union shop", where new non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union. In "right to work" states (mostly the ones that used to have slavery), union shops are prohibited.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        > non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union That amounts to the same thing.
      - Bartweiss 9y ago
        > "union shop", where new non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union This retains the problem that you have to join the union, and therefore are immediately subject to the union's negotiated rules on seniority, pay scale, benefits, etc. It's better than a closed shop, but doesn't solve the problem at hand here.

Do you think you'd have more of what you want if bargaining with your employer as an individual?

by xapata 9y ago

Do you think you'd have more of what you want if bargaining with your employer as an individual?

Yes. There is of course still a negotiation of benefits on top of the standard contract, I'm not paid minimum wage. If I could remove some benefits I don't need from my own, personal contract this would give me leverage to get something else in return. A slightly higher wage if nothing else.

ghaff 9y ago
Possibly although in my experience in the US the flexibility to change benefits is limited. I have choice in things like health plans but that's mostly about how much I want to pay on top of an employer contribution. Most of the disability, life insurance, etc. benefits aren't negotiable afaik (and are probably much better deals from the company anyway).
- gricardo99 9y ago
  It depends on the employer. If you're under 35, and in decent health, you're likely better off getting disability and life insurance on your own. Your premiums will be lower than from a group plan, which usually takes some average demographics to determine the group premiums. If your employer is paying the premiums, you're better off if you can decline the benefit, get yourself a lower premium plan, and pocket the difference. Conversely, if you're older, or have health issues, those group plans can be a steal of a deal.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    That may be true although, to the broader point, I've never seen those sorts of benefits be optional (albeit across a fairly small sample size). Employers get a good deal precisely because there's going to be a lot of adverse selection with these sorts of things. Healthy single 20-somethings get a pretty good deal on their own but most of them won't even bother.
- kobeya 9y ago
  That's because of federal tax laws regarding benefits, sadly.

Klockan 9y ago

Yes, unions works kinda like price fixing but across the entire country. The thing is that the union tells everyone what your expected salary is given certain experience, so this salary will always be the starting point in any negotiation. If you are a strong candidate you might get a few percent more and vice versa for weak candidates. This is how it worked where I came from at least.

kobeya 9y ago

Yes. Unions protect workers in commodity markets. Software development is _not_ a commodity. Anyone with valuable skills should be able to negotiate a better deal with potential employers than the industry average that the union represents.

xapata 9y ago
Then why can't you negotiate a better deal separately from the union? If it's truly not a commodity market, then a firm could gain a competitive advantage by refusing to negotiate with the union and hiring non-union employees.
- kobeya 9y ago
  You must not be familiar with how unions work, which is understandable. A union employer can ONLY hire union employees to do the class of job the union provides. The employer does not have the option to hire non-union workers for those roles as long as the union contract is in effect. This enforced depending on the jurisdiction either in contracts or by government regulations.
  - Animats 9y ago
    No, that's a closed shop, which has been illegal in the US since 1947. The usual arrangement in the US is a "union shop", where new non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union. In "right to work" states (mostly the ones that used to have slavery), union shops are prohibited.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      > non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union That amounts to the same thing.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      > "union shop", where new non-union employees can be hired, but must join the union This retains the problem that you have to join the union, and therefore are immediately subject to the union's negotiated rules on seniority, pay scale, benefits, etc. It's better than a closed shop, but doesn't solve the problem at hand here.