4 ms·

Half the article wasn't about a/c efficiency it was that HFC is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2, and was agreed to be phased out. Is there really an HFC repl

by rb808 9y ago

Half the article wasn't about a/c efficiency it was that HFC is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2, and was agreed to be phased out. Is there really an HFC replacement - what is it? I wasnt aware.

maxerickson 9y ago
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents/international_transitioning_to_low-gwp_alternatives_in_res_and_com_ac_chillers.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents...
ajmurmann 9y ago
I hear ammonia and propane: http://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-management http://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-mana...
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
  Isn't there a big fire/explosion risk as these are very flammable?
  - timmaah 9y ago
    Most RV's use this combo for the fridge. They don't seem to explode but there does seem to be a number of fires.
    - quicklyfrozen 9y ago
      Well, RV fridges are burning propane to heat ammonia (so it can function when electricity is not available). This is not the same as actually replacing the refrigerant with propane (or a propane/isobutane blend). Still seems less risky then a gas dryer.
    - mzs 9y ago
      RV fridges burn the propane not compress it.
neuronexmachina 9y ago
Many HN users might be too young to remember, but curiously enough a/c refrigerants were also a major issue the last time there was a successful international treaty to help fight a major environmental problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol > It was agreed on 16 September 1987, and entered into force on 1 January 1989... As a result of the international agreement, the ozone hole in Antarctica is slowly recovering.[3] Climate projections indicate that the ozone layer will return to 1980 levels between 2050 and 2070.[4][5] Due to its widespread adoption and implementation it has been hailed as an example of exceptional international co-operation, with Kofi Annan quoted as saying that "perhaps the single most successful international agreement to date has been the Montreal Protocol".
amluto 9y ago
One of the nicest refrigerant choices is, perhaps ironically, CO2. It has negligible warming potential in the quantities that would be used as refrigerant, it's very safe, and it's dirt cheap. The main downside is that the whole system has to be operated at higher pressure that it does for HFC refrigerants.
strommen 9y ago
Can't believe I had to scroll way down to find a comment that actually understood the article! There are new refrigerants called HFOs that are chemically-similar to HFCs, but do not exhibit the greenhouse effect. Ammonia and propane also work, and are commonly used in commercial refrigeration today.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

by rb808 9y ago

Half the article wasn't about a/c efficiency it was that HFC is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2, and was agreed to be phased out. Is there really an HFC replacement - what is it? I wasnt aware.

maxerickson 9y ago

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents/international_transitioning_to_low-gwp_alternatives_in_res_and_com_ac_chillers.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-12/documents...

ajmurmann 9y ago

I hear ammonia and propane: http://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-management http://www.drawdown.org/solutions/materials/refrigerant-mana...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
Isn't there a big fire/explosion risk as these are very flammable?
- timmaah 9y ago
  Most RV's use this combo for the fridge. They don't seem to explode but there does seem to be a number of fires.
  - quicklyfrozen 9y ago
    Well, RV fridges are burning propane to heat ammonia (so it can function when electricity is not available). This is not the same as actually replacing the refrigerant with propane (or a propane/isobutane blend). Still seems less risky then a gas dryer.
  - mzs 9y ago
    RV fridges burn the propane not compress it.

neuronexmachina 9y ago

Many HN users might be too young to remember, but curiously enough a/c refrigerants were also a major issue the last time there was a successful international treaty to help fight a major environmental problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol > It was agreed on 16 September 1987, and entered into force on 1 January 1989... As a result of the international agreement, the ozone hole in Antarctica is slowly recovering.[3] Climate projections indicate that the ozone layer will return to 1980 levels between 2050 and 2070.[4][5] Due to its widespread adoption and implementation it has been hailed as an example of exceptional international co-operation, with Kofi Annan quoted as saying that "perhaps the single most successful international agreement to date has been the Montreal Protocol".

amluto 9y ago

One of the nicest refrigerant choices is, perhaps ironically, CO2. It has negligible warming potential in the quantities that would be used as refrigerant, it's very safe, and it's dirt cheap. The main downside is that the whole system has to be operated at higher pressure that it does for HFC refrigerants.

strommen 9y ago

Can't believe I had to scroll way down to find a comment that actually understood the article! There are new refrigerants called HFOs that are chemically-similar to HFCs, but do not exhibit the greenhouse effect. Ammonia and propane also work, and are commonly used in commercial refrigeration today.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]