5 ms·

Everyone says that after book 3 or 4 they go downhill anyway. I like to believe there was only one Matrix movie ever made and only one Dune novel. I will pro

Everyone says that after book 3 or 4 they go downhill anyway. I like to believe there was only one Matrix movie ever made and only one Dune novel. I will probably prefer to believe that there were actually 9-N books in The Expanse series, where N has yet to be determined.

ethbro 9y ago
I'm rereading the Dune series right now and on Children of Dune. Actually REALLY enjoying the 2+ books more than the first. What would one do if one had become a human god but didn't like the future he saw? Like the post-Ender's books (before Card sold out), I find mulling over the consequences of upsetting an applecart far more interesting than the upsetting. The first books in both series feel a bit too "Mission Accomplished!", pat-on-the-back in hindsight.
- keenerd 9y ago
  For me it is all about the world building, the practicalness of the universe presented. Dune had a decade of planning go into it before the first book was written. The rest did not have that amount of background effort and it shows. After the first book it all feels like he's making it up as he goes along, instead of drawing on an encyclopedia. Children of Dune had the most egregious problem with this. Trying here to not spoil the plot for you, but at towards the end (page 329 of 408 in my edition) Leto discovers something profound. The backstory to introduce this was first mentioned on the previous page. It didn't use some bit of trivial from the first two books, and he couldn't be bothered to write it 300 pages earlier either. (Feel free to email me when you think you've reached that part.) The later novels are slightly better, then he's writing these new discoveries into the previous chapter. Re-reading Dune has always been pleasurable for me. You can feel it is just the tip of an iceberg and tease out the history by reading between the lines. The other books lurch from one deus ex machina to another. Ender's Game is also largely about consequences too. Humanity wins the fight and destroys the big bad, but this doesn't happen at the end of the book. There is still a third of the story left to mull over the consequences. edit: Slight spoilers, but nearly all of the later Dune books essentially allow anyone to come back from the dead. He never once explores the ramifications of this. What happens if you try to bring back multiple copies of someone at once? Does every cell in our body really carry the full weight of our entire past experience? What about identical twins? What if you blended the nucleus of one person with the mitochondria of a second and the cellular plasma of a third? Or does the procedure somehow tap into the soul? Is god annoyed that the natural cycle is broken? Does the process damage the soul? Never once delves into any of this, instead it is used only as a cop-out to avoid creating new characters.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    I hear what you're saying. I'm gradually arriving at a model of "good book" that includes what a person's particular transgressions of suspensions of disbelief are, and what degree is required to trigger them. For me, the biggest things are currently "must be at least this hard sci-fi" and "must have believably human characters." It sounds like one of yours is "must have book-spanning world-building." Which I get, but don't think bothers me as much. I expect the unexplored deus ex machina will probably irk me when it shows up though! Though maybe not, I think a large part of my enjoyment of Dune is the somewhat orthagonal-to-Western world-building. Although the Islamic religious echoes are ham-fisted and shallow sometimes, it's still refreshing to even read something attempting it. By my memory, Ender's didn't mull over consequences nearly as much as Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, & Children of the Mind. It was more "Oh my god, this was horrible" and less "We did a horrible thing, so what do we do now? And how does that inform our reactions the next time we're presented with the same choice?" Side note: if you ever want to read something laughably bad, especially for how modern it is, read one of the Honor Harrington books from David Weber. I tapped out after 20 pages.
    - keenerd 9y ago
      Maybe world building is the wrong term? I consider civilizations, economics, infrastructure, etc, as another character in the story. They have background and develop over time. They should be as believable as the humans. This is common in the "future history" sub-genre but you find unexpected gems too. Discworld was remarkably good about it, for example. Just found my copy of Ender's, one of the few OSC books I still have. I got the proportions very wrong. The story was "over" on page 295 of 324. So like 9%, the entire last chapter, was about the aftermath. Mostly Ender dealing with what happened. Still way more than the usual "happily ever after" and sequel hook you normally see, to give it credit. The Honorverse is the purest of space opera. I have too many good memories to agree with you, but I won't push my luck with a re-reading. I seem to recall that it actually was pretty good at having their magic super weapons, drives and shields progress reasonably over the series. Weber was very good about having military tactics shift in step with the technology.

ethbro 9y ago

I'm rereading the Dune series right now and on Children of Dune. Actually REALLY enjoying the 2+ books more than the first. What would one do if one had become a human god but didn't like the future he saw? Like the post-Ender's books (before Card sold out), I find mulling over the consequences of upsetting an applecart far more interesting than the upsetting. The first books in both series feel a bit too "Mission Accomplished!", pat-on-the-back in hindsight.

keenerd 9y ago
For me it is all about the world building, the practicalness of the universe presented. Dune had a decade of planning go into it before the first book was written. The rest did not have that amount of background effort and it shows. After the first book it all feels like he's making it up as he goes along, instead of drawing on an encyclopedia. Children of Dune had the most egregious problem with this. Trying here to not spoil the plot for you, but at towards the end (page 329 of 408 in my edition) Leto discovers something profound. The backstory to introduce this was first mentioned on the previous page. It didn't use some bit of trivial from the first two books, and he couldn't be bothered to write it 300 pages earlier either. (Feel free to email me when you think you've reached that part.) The later novels are slightly better, then he's writing these new discoveries into the previous chapter. Re-reading Dune has always been pleasurable for me. You can feel it is just the tip of an iceberg and tease out the history by reading between the lines. The other books lurch from one deus ex machina to another. Ender's Game is also largely about consequences too. Humanity wins the fight and destroys the big bad, but this doesn't happen at the end of the book. There is still a third of the story left to mull over the consequences. edit: Slight spoilers, but nearly all of the later Dune books essentially allow anyone to come back from the dead. He never once explores the ramifications of this. What happens if you try to bring back multiple copies of someone at once? Does every cell in our body really carry the full weight of our entire past experience? What about identical twins? What if you blended the nucleus of one person with the mitochondria of a second and the cellular plasma of a third? Or does the procedure somehow tap into the soul? Is god annoyed that the natural cycle is broken? Does the process damage the soul? Never once delves into any of this, instead it is used only as a cop-out to avoid creating new characters.
- ethbro 9y ago
  I hear what you're saying. I'm gradually arriving at a model of "good book" that includes what a person's particular transgressions of suspensions of disbelief are, and what degree is required to trigger them. For me, the biggest things are currently "must be at least this hard sci-fi" and "must have believably human characters." It sounds like one of yours is "must have book-spanning world-building." Which I get, but don't think bothers me as much. I expect the unexplored deus ex machina will probably irk me when it shows up though! Though maybe not, I think a large part of my enjoyment of Dune is the somewhat orthagonal-to-Western world-building. Although the Islamic religious echoes are ham-fisted and shallow sometimes, it's still refreshing to even read something attempting it. By my memory, Ender's didn't mull over consequences nearly as much as Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, & Children of the Mind. It was more "Oh my god, this was horrible" and less "We did a horrible thing, so what do we do now? And how does that inform our reactions the next time we're presented with the same choice?" Side note: if you ever want to read something laughably bad, especially for how modern it is, read one of the Honor Harrington books from David Weber. I tapped out after 20 pages.
  - keenerd 9y ago
    Maybe world building is the wrong term? I consider civilizations, economics, infrastructure, etc, as another character in the story. They have background and develop over time. They should be as believable as the humans. This is common in the "future history" sub-genre but you find unexpected gems too. Discworld was remarkably good about it, for example. Just found my copy of Ender's, one of the few OSC books I still have. I got the proportions very wrong. The story was "over" on page 295 of 324. So like 9%, the entire last chapter, was about the aftermath. Mostly Ender dealing with what happened. Still way more than the usual "happily ever after" and sequel hook you normally see, to give it credit. The Honorverse is the purest of space opera. I have too many good memories to agree with you, but I won't push my luck with a re-reading. I seem to recall that it actually was pretty good at having their magic super weapons, drives and shields progress reasonably over the series. Weber was very good about having military tactics shift in step with the technology.