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I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Not every bootcamp graduate is the same. There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Not every bootcamp graduate is the same. There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. In other words, I don't think it's fair to say "there's an over-abundance of graduates from XYZ university. It's hard to choose among them." Regardless, stereotyping job candidates based on where they learned to code is poor practice. A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. If your organization simply doesn't want to take on junior/entry-level programmers, it should be clear in the job post _and_ IMO, you shouldn't be open to receiving college-grad applications, either.

bluesnow10 9y ago
Totally agree. I'm the CEO at Bloc, the first and largest online coding and design bootcamp. There is a big wedge between quality and financial viability when the model is in-person/bricks-and-mortar. https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-are-terrible-businesses-d4c9f122814 https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-ar...
smt88 9y ago
I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides more value to the employee than the employer. That might work for some big companies, but I can't do it in a small company. > There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. I agree with you, but it doesn't make it any easier to hire them. I have no idea if I'd rather have an ex-ballerina or an ex-salesman as my employee. Neither of those careers give you training as a developer. So if I'm just trying to decide if someone can do the job, seeing 20 people with 12-16 weeks of experience isn't helpful. And, as someone who has been writing code for 20 years and still has a lot to learn, it's insulting to suggest someone can become competent in that short a time. I know for a fact that they can't. It sometimes takes that long for an experienced dev to learn a new stack, and bootcamps are claiming to teach people a huge array of technologies. > A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. I treat candidates with respect. I think (most) bootcamps should treat their customers with more respect and stop promising to teach them to code. Bootcamps are mostly "teaching to the test" in my experience -- they teach you how to get hired. That's valuable, but it's a totally different thing.
- tannhauser23 9y ago
  How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort. Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.
  - smt88 9y ago
    > Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? Those would be the same in that they don't have coding experience. Those people might be great hires, but they're not going to be great coders after a few short months trying to learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and possibly a backend language. I didn't say that they're stupid or anything. I mentioned that even a highly experienced coder wouldn't be competent with a new stack in that amount of time. > People in my cohort were contributing right away. Contributions aren't the same as good contributions. Bad contributions are much worse and more expensive than no contribution at all. > launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. Again, none of these things indicate competence necessarily, and they certainly don't indicate that someone is a great hire. Coding is not just knowing facts and writing code. It's having the experience to know how to structure things, what tradeoffs to make, etc. > If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you. I'm not insulted by their success, but I am concerned that bootcamps are taking lots of money from people and not delivering what they say they're delivering. Edit: If you look at other comments in this thread, I think many bootcamp grads agree. There's also going to be some survivorship bias here: you succeeded due to your bootcamp, but does that mean it works for everyone? Would you have been able to do it on your own? Are you smarter than the average person who would be interested in a bootcamp?
    - tannhauser23 9y ago
      What basis do you have for asserting that their contributions are bad? That their open source projects and promotions to team leadership aren't signs of competence? Look, you can go on believing whatever you want to believe about bootcamp grads - no one's forcing you to hire them. But it is interesting to me that my cohort mates keep getting hired by everyone from small startups to Google, and they keep progressing in their careers. That tells me the bootcamps have done a good job of prepping them to begin their coding careers. And wait, who said bootcamps is for everyone? My bootcamp never made that claim - they specifically said that it's hard, they're selective about who they let in, and that they kick out people who aren't cutting it. And who cares whether I (or anyone else) could have done it on my own? Could you have learned to code without taking comp sci classes? Probably, right? Does that mean your college was pointless/useless/fraudulent? Of course not. Bootcamps showed that entry level developer jobs at most web startups don't require four years of studying computer science. It's a craft that many people can pick up without formal education in the subject matter. And if you ever want or need to learn about 'deeper' subjects? We can just pick up a book and learn it. This isn't rocket science.

bluesnow10 9y ago

Totally agree. I'm the CEO at Bloc, the first and largest online coding and design bootcamp. There is a big wedge between quality and financial viability when the model is in-person/bricks-and-mortar. https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-are-terrible-businesses-d4c9f122814 https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-ar...

smt88 9y ago

I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides more value to the employee than the employer. That might work for some big companies, but I can't do it in a small company. > There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. I agree with you, but it doesn't make it any easier to hire them. I have no idea if I'd rather have an ex-ballerina or an ex-salesman as my employee. Neither of those careers give you training as a developer. So if I'm just trying to decide if someone can do the job, seeing 20 people with 12-16 weeks of experience isn't helpful. And, as someone who has been writing code for 20 years and still has a lot to learn, it's insulting to suggest someone can become competent in that short a time. I know for a fact that they can't. It sometimes takes that long for an experienced dev to learn a new stack, and bootcamps are claiming to teach people a huge array of technologies. > A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. I treat candidates with respect. I think (most) bootcamps should treat their customers with more respect and stop promising to teach them to code. Bootcamps are mostly "teaching to the test" in my experience -- they teach you how to get hired. That's valuable, but it's a totally different thing.

tannhauser23 9y ago
How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort. Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.
- smt88 9y ago
  > Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? Those would be the same in that they don't have coding experience. Those people might be great hires, but they're not going to be great coders after a few short months trying to learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and possibly a backend language. I didn't say that they're stupid or anything. I mentioned that even a highly experienced coder wouldn't be competent with a new stack in that amount of time. > People in my cohort were contributing right away. Contributions aren't the same as good contributions. Bad contributions are much worse and more expensive than no contribution at all. > launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. Again, none of these things indicate competence necessarily, and they certainly don't indicate that someone is a great hire. Coding is not just knowing facts and writing code. It's having the experience to know how to structure things, what tradeoffs to make, etc. > If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you. I'm not insulted by their success, but I am concerned that bootcamps are taking lots of money from people and not delivering what they say they're delivering. Edit: If you look at other comments in this thread, I think many bootcamp grads agree. There's also going to be some survivorship bias here: you succeeded due to your bootcamp, but does that mean it works for everyone? Would you have been able to do it on your own? Are you smarter than the average person who would be interested in a bootcamp?
  - tannhauser23 9y ago
    What basis do you have for asserting that their contributions are bad? That their open source projects and promotions to team leadership aren't signs of competence? Look, you can go on believing whatever you want to believe about bootcamp grads - no one's forcing you to hire them. But it is interesting to me that my cohort mates keep getting hired by everyone from small startups to Google, and they keep progressing in their careers. That tells me the bootcamps have done a good job of prepping them to begin their coding careers. And wait, who said bootcamps is for everyone? My bootcamp never made that claim - they specifically said that it's hard, they're selective about who they let in, and that they kick out people who aren't cutting it. And who cares whether I (or anyone else) could have done it on my own? Could you have learned to code without taking comp sci classes? Probably, right? Does that mean your college was pointless/useless/fraudulent? Of course not. Bootcamps showed that entry level developer jobs at most web startups don't require four years of studying computer science. It's a craft that many people can pick up without formal education in the subject matter. And if you ever want or need to learn about 'deeper' subjects? We can just pick up a book and learn it. This isn't rocket science.