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> This means that any bitcoins you receive after that time may later disappear from your wallet or be a type of bitcoin that other people will not accept as pay

> This means that any bitcoins you receive after that time may later disappear from your wallet or be a type of bitcoin that other people will not accept as payment. Can you imagine the uproar if Visa said the same thing? It would be totally unthinkable. Bitcoin can get away with this type of "disruption" because it's not really being used for anything other than a speculative vehicle.

Taek 9y ago
That's incorrect, Bitcoin is used in many places for critical applications, and I'm sure that those people are very frustrated by the situation. I know that I am. We are doing a hardware presale using Bitcoin, and we're going to have to stop accepting Bitcoin at that time (it's a cryptocurrency miner, 90% of our sales are in Bitcoin), and that's going to hurt us. This whole situation is frustrating.
gcp 9y ago
I dunno about you but debit and credit card terminal failures are rather typical around Black Friday like situations.
ar0 9y ago
Isn't "any [money] you receive [...] may later disappear" actually pretty common with credit card chargebacks?
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  Chargebacks usually have some form of review/dispute process as well. What's bit-coin's process for disputing the disappearance of my wallet's contents because of this fork?
- matt_wulfeck 9y ago
  This is such a silly argument. Chargebacks are for the protection of the consumer against a business. They're GREAT if you're a consumer. Why would it be in my benefit as a bitcoin user to have no recourse for fraudulent transactions?
nenreme 9y ago
> Can you imagine the uproar if Visa said the same thing? It would be totally unthinkable. No, that's exactly what Visa says, they call it chargeback. That's why it is hard to buy bitcoins with bank cards.
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  Yes, and you can dispute it, by contacting your them/your bank. Who do I call if bitscoins just evaporate from my wallet thanks to this fork?
  - kakarot 9y ago
    Decentralized currency comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. The tech is still in its infancy. Take it or leave it.
    - GenericsMotors 9y ago
      Then seems to me it's on its deathbed, not in its infancy. A handful of Chinese mining pools will decide which fork retains any value...so much for decentralization.
      - kakarot 9y ago
        You are conflating Bitcoin with decentralized currency.
  - shardo 9y ago
    If a government outlaws a currency and you sold your house for that currency, who could you possibly call? Bitcoins transacted before July 31 WILL stay in your wallet. They are not going to evaporate any time soon.
    - GenericsMotors 9y ago
      And this is not was I was replying to. Gp was comparing this to a chargeback. But now that you bring up governance, bitcoin is essentially being steered by a handful of mining pools, not by loosely knit community of private individuals :)
moduspol 9y ago
Visa is only a payment network. Bitcoin is both a currency and a payment network. If you as a business accept(ed) Visa payments in Zimbabwe's currency in 2008, or Venezuelan bolivars over the last few years, you absolutely can have its value disappear from you.
- GenericsMotors 9y ago
  > you absolutely can have its value disappear from you. This is not a fair representation of what the article says. It doesn't only say that coins you've received may lose value, it says that there's no guarantee the network will recognize the contents of your wallet in the future. A more accurate analogy would be me handing you a crisp $100 bill which you place in your wallet, and tomorrow when you go to retrieve it, it has vanished into thin air. Even a turd of a currency like ZWD won't materially vanish. You just have to spend it as quickly as possibly after you receive it, while it still holds value.
  - moduspol 9y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding the situation the article is describing then. In that unlikely but possible scenario: Your wallet would have received coins on Chain A, but the majority of the network now favors Chain B and as a result is ignoring Chain A. You still have the private key to coins and can spend them on Chain A. It's just problematic because they're on a chain fewer people value. Fewer, but not zero. They will still have some value, just less, and will be able to be sold out of band for coins on Chain B if desired. This has already happened with Ethereum [1]. Each chain has its own exchange rate. > Even a turd of a currency like ZWD won't materially vanish. You just have to spend it as quickly as possibly after you receive it, while it still holds value. The ZWD's rate of inflation was at one point at 79,600,000,000% [2]. We are getting pretty abstract if we're going to debate how close that is to materially vanishing. [1] http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-classic-explained-blockchain/ http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-classic-explained-blockchai... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Withdrawal_of_the_Zimbabwean_Dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Withdrawal_o...

Taek 9y ago

That's incorrect, Bitcoin is used in many places for critical applications, and I'm sure that those people are very frustrated by the situation. I know that I am. We are doing a hardware presale using Bitcoin, and we're going to have to stop accepting Bitcoin at that time (it's a cryptocurrency miner, 90% of our sales are in Bitcoin), and that's going to hurt us. This whole situation is frustrating.

gcp 9y ago

I dunno about you but debit and credit card terminal failures are rather typical around Black Friday like situations.

ar0 9y ago

Isn't "any [money] you receive [...] may later disappear" actually pretty common with credit card chargebacks?

GenericsMotors 9y ago
Chargebacks usually have some form of review/dispute process as well. What's bit-coin's process for disputing the disappearance of my wallet's contents because of this fork?
matt_wulfeck 9y ago
This is such a silly argument. Chargebacks are for the protection of the consumer against a business. They're GREAT if you're a consumer. Why would it be in my benefit as a bitcoin user to have no recourse for fraudulent transactions?

nenreme 9y ago

> Can you imagine the uproar if Visa said the same thing? It would be totally unthinkable. No, that's exactly what Visa says, they call it chargeback. That's why it is hard to buy bitcoins with bank cards.

GenericsMotors 9y ago
Yes, and you can dispute it, by contacting your them/your bank. Who do I call if bitscoins just evaporate from my wallet thanks to this fork?
- kakarot 9y ago
  Decentralized currency comes with its own strengths and weaknesses. The tech is still in its infancy. Take it or leave it.
  - GenericsMotors 9y ago
    Then seems to me it's on its deathbed, not in its infancy. A handful of Chinese mining pools will decide which fork retains any value...so much for decentralization.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      You are conflating Bitcoin with decentralized currency.
- shardo 9y ago
  If a government outlaws a currency and you sold your house for that currency, who could you possibly call? Bitcoins transacted before July 31 WILL stay in your wallet. They are not going to evaporate any time soon.
  - GenericsMotors 9y ago
    And this is not was I was replying to. Gp was comparing this to a chargeback. But now that you bring up governance, bitcoin is essentially being steered by a handful of mining pools, not by loosely knit community of private individuals :)

moduspol 9y ago

Visa is only a payment network. Bitcoin is both a currency and a payment network. If you as a business accept(ed) Visa payments in Zimbabwe's currency in 2008, or Venezuelan bolivars over the last few years, you absolutely can have its value disappear from you.

GenericsMotors 9y ago
> you absolutely can have its value disappear from you. This is not a fair representation of what the article says. It doesn't only say that coins you've received may lose value, it says that there's no guarantee the network will recognize the contents of your wallet in the future. A more accurate analogy would be me handing you a crisp $100 bill which you place in your wallet, and tomorrow when you go to retrieve it, it has vanished into thin air. Even a turd of a currency like ZWD won't materially vanish. You just have to spend it as quickly as possibly after you receive it, while it still holds value.
- moduspol 9y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding the situation the article is describing then. In that unlikely but possible scenario: Your wallet would have received coins on Chain A, but the majority of the network now favors Chain B and as a result is ignoring Chain A. You still have the private key to coins and can spend them on Chain A. It's just problematic because they're on a chain fewer people value. Fewer, but not zero. They will still have some value, just less, and will be able to be sold out of band for coins on Chain B if desired. This has already happened with Ethereum [1]. Each chain has its own exchange rate. > Even a turd of a currency like ZWD won't materially vanish. You just have to spend it as quickly as possibly after you receive it, while it still holds value. The ZWD's rate of inflation was at one point at 79,600,000,000% [2]. We are getting pretty abstract if we're going to debate how close that is to materially vanishing. [1] http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-classic-explained-blockchain/ http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-classic-explained-blockchai... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Withdrawal_of_the_Zimbabwean_Dollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Withdrawal_o...