5 ms·

Does this mean coding is starting to lose its sexiness? Is the fad over?

arikr 9y ago
No.^1 [1]: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
smt88 9y ago
Possibly, but there certainly is an over-abundance of bootcamp grads, and it's hard to choose among them.
- panorama 9y ago
  I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Not every bootcamp graduate is the same. There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. In other words, I don't think it's fair to say "there's an over-abundance of graduates from XYZ university. It's hard to choose among them." Regardless, stereotyping job candidates based on where they learned to code is poor practice. A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. If your organization simply doesn't want to take on junior/entry-level programmers, it should be clear in the job post _and_ IMO, you shouldn't be open to receiving college-grad applications, either.
  - bluesnow10 9y ago
    Totally agree. I'm the CEO at Bloc, the first and largest online coding and design bootcamp. There is a big wedge between quality and financial viability when the model is in-person/bricks-and-mortar. https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-are-terrible-businesses-d4c9f122814 https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-ar...
  - smt88 9y ago
    I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides more value to the employee than the employer. That might work for some big companies, but I can't do it in a small company. > There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. I agree with you, but it doesn't make it any easier to hire them. I have no idea if I'd rather have an ex-ballerina or an ex-salesman as my employee. Neither of those careers give you training as a developer. So if I'm just trying to decide if someone can do the job, seeing 20 people with 12-16 weeks of experience isn't helpful. And, as someone who has been writing code for 20 years and still has a lot to learn, it's insulting to suggest someone can become competent in that short a time. I know for a fact that they can't. It sometimes takes that long for an experienced dev to learn a new stack, and bootcamps are claiming to teach people a huge array of technologies. > A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. I treat candidates with respect. I think (most) bootcamps should treat their customers with more respect and stop promising to teach them to code. Bootcamps are mostly "teaching to the test" in my experience -- they teach you how to get hired. That's valuable, but it's a totally different thing.
    - tannhauser23 9y ago
      How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort. Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.
      - smt88 9y ago

No.^1 [1]: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

smt88 9y ago

Possibly, but there certainly is an over-abundance of bootcamp grads, and it's hard to choose among them.

panorama 9y ago
I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Not every bootcamp graduate is the same. There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. In other words, I don't think it's fair to say "there's an over-abundance of graduates from XYZ university. It's hard to choose among them." Regardless, stereotyping job candidates based on where they learned to code is poor practice. A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. If your organization simply doesn't want to take on junior/entry-level programmers, it should be clear in the job post _and_ IMO, you shouldn't be open to receiving college-grad applications, either.
- bluesnow10 9y ago
  Totally agree. I'm the CEO at Bloc, the first and largest online coding and design bootcamp. There is a big wedge between quality and financial viability when the model is in-person/bricks-and-mortar. https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-are-terrible-businesses-d4c9f122814 https://medium.com/@clintmania/in-person-coding-bootcamps-ar...
- smt88 9y ago
  I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides more value to the employee than the employer. That might work for some big companies, but I can't do it in a small company. > There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. I agree with you, but it doesn't make it any easier to hire them. I have no idea if I'd rather have an ex-ballerina or an ex-salesman as my employee. Neither of those careers give you training as a developer. So if I'm just trying to decide if someone can do the job, seeing 20 people with 12-16 weeks of experience isn't helpful. And, as someone who has been writing code for 20 years and still has a lot to learn, it's insulting to suggest someone can become competent in that short a time. I know for a fact that they can't. It sometimes takes that long for an experienced dev to learn a new stack, and bootcamps are claiming to teach people a huge array of technologies. > A good hiring manager ought to take the time to treat a candidate respectfully, but I know this behavior is rare. I treat candidates with respect. I think (most) bootcamps should treat their customers with more respect and stop promising to teach them to code. Bootcamps are mostly "teaching to the test" in my experience -- they teach you how to get hired. That's valuable, but it's a totally different thing.
  - tannhauser23 9y ago
    How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort. Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.
    - smt88 9y ago